Forums › Payment cards › American Express › Amex card suspended and then cancelled
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I agree they can choose with whom they can do business with. But…. Here is the big but. So can we. This isn’t a one way street and a flippant arrogant retailer will have there customer base decimated. The same will happen if Amex are not customer centric.
They used to understand that it isn’t them doing is a service. It’s a relationship where effectively we choose their services for a fee. A bit of humbleness and a willingness to work with their customers would go a long way
That’s certainly something I agree with. Not the greatest comparison but compare it to a pub: do you want to have a pint with your mates at a local which caters to 100% of all potential guests, including the 5% yobs who disrupt every other guest and smash up the place every now and then, or do you prefer one which caters to the 95% and tells the 5% disruptors to go elsewhere? I know which one I prefer.
Gaming the system doesn’t come for free. The cost is loss of service and opportunities to clients. That’s already quite obvious in Amex Offers – their attractiveness gets reduced whenever there was gaming in the past, Shop Small or other. I’d love for Amex to kick out the 5% and focus on customer service excellence for the remaining 95% – and deliver on that.
Till the day that they declare you a yob… Which is exactly my point.
Re IHG it was registering for promotions that you were not eligible for.
Forgive my ignorance here, but just curious as to how can someone register for promotions that they are ineligible for? I thought an error message would flag, something along the lines of “Sorry, you are not eligible for this offer”?
Never assume that anyone else is competent
Never assume that anyone else is competent
Or at least competent IT. Ha ha.
Clearly AMEX have some good fraud/gaming/catching innocent mistake software running, but it feels like a lot of this could be made simpler with a more specific set of T&C and IT tweaks such as;
– only allowing each offer to be saved to one card per account, supplemental or main (rather than multiple cards)
– not issuing points to PayPal transfections when it’s a F&F (not sure how easy this would be, although F&F transfers are usually displayed PAYPAL*NAME rather than BUSINESS NAME, so clearly there’s something different behind the scenes
– only allowing referral points to be issued when the referee isn’t already an AMEX customer (or hasn’t been for 2 years, say), which would stop multiple referrals from one person to the same other person and only bring in “genuine” new customers)
– not paying out credit when their system believes there has been gaming (e.g. on Shop Small), rather than cancel the cards. If there’s a complaint about missing credit, saying it’s because of suspected gaming. People will soon realise it’s not working and stop gaming. You’ll either retain a reformed customer (and keep the income they generate) or, if they don’t see any “gaming” value they’ll leave of their own accord.Even some of those suggestions you make could be seen as gaming.
Sharing a restaurant bill is fairly common but is paying a weekly Sainsburys (other retailers are available) shop across two cards?
The most common response to that is why couldn’t the second person just pay the first one back or put them through as two separate shops?
And with Sainsburys you can’t share the bill across separate nectar cards with their different offers!
If both of you go into Sainsbury’s it’s perfectly possible to split the shopping between you. Just use separate trolleys and go to separate tills. Or use two scanners and each pay separately. You could even both use scanners and pay for both bills on one card in two separate transactions.
During the lockdowns I did the shopping for a vulnerable neighbour, paying on my card and my OH did our shopping at the same time paying on their card.
Till the day that they declare you a yob… Which is exactly my point.
If you don’t behave like one, there is no risk.
Till the day that they declare you a yob… Which is exactly my point.
If you don’t behave like one, there is no risk.
To keep the analogy going, there’s a difference to being a yob smashing up the place (£000’s of MS monthly) and being a little bit noisy (splitting a shop small spend). If you do the latter, you’d hope the landlord would ask you to keep it down, rather than throw you out and ban you along with the smashing-up-yobs. If you got asked to be quiet multiple times and didn’t listen, yes, fair enough, escort off the premises.
But if you’re being a bit noisy (and don’t realise it… Often the case after a visit to the pub!) and the landlord comes up to your table having just ejected the yobs and tells you to leave as well without explanation, you’d definitely be a bit confused. “We aren’t with the yobs, we don’t know them, we didn’t smash anything up, we’re just sitting here drinking the drinks you sold us (using the offers AMEX gave you)”.
@alig4th I’m not sure how well the pub analogy works, but overall it’s about boundaries. Amex doesn’t publish them as it would be impossible to cover every element of potential excess/abuse and the law gives the cardholder and provider an absolute right to cancel an account without providing a reason.
Financial services and in fact most aspects of life rely on respect, trust and people ‘doing the right thing’ and one hopes people teach their children boundaries, although the expediency overtly displayed here by a small group does make one wonder.
It’s just not complicated, many of us have had credit cards including Amex for 20+ years without any run ins and we have had plenty of SUBs, bonuses, used loads of offers without incident. I think it is very clear what is acceptable and what is not. Those that find it any way unclear, so push the limits will eventually run into trouble and as another poster above suggested, I hope that Amex will chuck out more dodgepots.
… it’s about boundaries. Amex doesn’t publish them… we have had plenty of SUBs, bonuses, used loads of offers without incident… I think it is very clear what is acceptable and what is not.
I’m not sure how the boundaries can be clear without it being explicitly stated (otherwise it’s not clear, right?). I get there is a “don’t take the mickey” level of honesty and respect involved (as you say), but I’m not sure how the casual user is meant to know what AMEX considers “taking the mickey”(/gaming) when all they see is an offer saying “spend £15 on this card, get £5 back” (for example). No normal person with the same offer on 2 cards would go “no thanks, I’ll just use one card and have one lot of £5 back, please”, right? That’s not “gaming”, that’s using two separate offers given to you on two separate cards.
Also, if you’ve had “plenty of SUBs” but have held an AMEX for over 20 years, doesn’t that sound a bit like “gaming” to you? Or from your moral standpoint, getting a sign-up bonus after 2 years fallow… If you were previously a customer, should you accept the SUB as they’re really only intended for new customers, right?
@JDB sorry, I’ve done it again, I’ve started to engage you in opinion-logic-perspective discussions in a forum post (which will be fruitless as it’s a terrible medium for genuine discussion).
@alig4th re SUBs, plenty in my view is probably different to that of others. Have held BAPP since inception, Tesco Premium when it launched until they stopped Avios, then HSBC WE to replace that and Barclays Avios Plus all still held save Tesco. My wife v similar but took the 40k offer to upgrade gold to Plat. Neither of us has ever asked for or received a retention offer because we haven’t contemplated. Boring, but simple and works for us. Children even more horrified than me re idea of lying for a retention. It’s not difficult to earn buckets of Avios by more respectable means.
Player 2 here has had a similar experience.
Her income is pretty low (but declared honestly on application); she put some pretty hefty billhop transactions through immediately on getting the card.
Amex wrote asking for her to contact them – which she was very disinclined to do (she was somewhat-reluctantly playing the game in order to get the BA benefits) – instead settling the outstanding balance and requesting account closure.
A few days later a notice of default arrived, naming the sum of £250 (the annual fee). The website showed a much smaller sum owed (proportionate refund of most of the fee), which she’s paid.
They’ve ignored related correspondence so far and it’s on my todo list to go complaint, then ombudsman if necessary, and check whether Amex have placed defamatory notices with credit reference agencies.
@alig4th re SUBs, plenty in my view is probably different to that of others. Have held BAPP since inception, Tesco Premium when it launched until they stopped Avios, then HSBC WE to replace that and Barclays Avios Plus all still held save Tesco. My wife v similar but took the 40k offer to upgrade gold to Plat. Neither of us has ever asked for or received a retention offer because we haven’t contemplated. Boring, but simple and works for us. Children even more horrified than me re idea of lying for a retention. It’s not difficult to earn buckets of Avios by more respectable means.
That’s an interesting position, I wonder how many this is true of, I suspect the bulk not asking for retention offers are just lazy. I’ve had retention offers on both my Plat and Gold. I was 50/50 on cancelling the Plat, and the call was just to see, the offer did retain me, so far. On the Gold I was 95% certain to cancel, as a result of a complex mix-up with dates that did me out of 5K MR. The final agent I spoke agreed with the date issue, said he couldn’t solve it and since it had gone to back office twice previously to be ignored he couldn’t see what to do. Offered me 20K MR which I accepted and kept the Gold too. I’m uncertain of a long term strategy regarding cards, but the hold and pay strategy is just supporting the ridiculous retention/churn cycles that Amex have self-created. I know leaving the door unlocked doesn’t justify being robbed, but I see no point in being a ‘good’ customer when so little is done to reward good customers versus serial churners. Do I take a position ethically to justify my own behaviour, probably, but I’m flawed.
Unfortunately, this EXACT thing just happened to me also.
First time Amex customer, very excited to use the points collected on my Amex British Airways premium card… only to have the card suspended and having to wait to find out why, only to then receive the most unnecessarily harsh and drastic letter I’ve ever had levelled at me (the exact same letter it seems @Reximus and @shahidemran received).
Like @Reximus, I am also self-employed (sole trader, soon to become a limited company). When submitting bank statements from my main personal and business accounts as requested by Amex, it did occur to me that the various transfers between my accounts appear messy. But easily understood and explained. I also submitted my annual salary, when asked during the application, based on my latest tax return.
It’s possible that my last two month’s income doesn’t reflect that exactly… but it’s a business, not a wage from an employer.
It seems from some posters here that there have been some people in the past who have had this happen but were somehow trying to game the system (?). I’m not even sure what that means and can assure you that I really just wanted to use my card for my legitimate business expenses and enjoy the rewards for myself and my family.
My business has quite high outgoings each month (Facebook ads being the highest) and it was pointed out to me that I could be putting that all through an Amex and racking up points.
All very exciting as I’ve been ignorant about these things until recently, and like many people, avoided credit cards like the plague, thinking this was the wise thing to do in life.
I too wondered if it was from putting too much too soon through the card.
I also wondered, I’m sad to say, if there isn’t some profiling going on…
Let’s just say that if @shahidaemran’s username is based on a real first and last name, then my real name is from the same part of the world. I don’t know… I’d hope that’s inconsequential, but a part of me does wonder based on some experiences I’ve had when travelling to the USA.
I also wondered, I’m sad to say, if there isn’t some profiling going on…
Let’s just say that if @shahidaemran’s username is based on a real first and last name, then my real name is from the same part of the world. I don’t know… I’d hope that’s inconsequential, but a part of me does wonder based on some experiences I’ve had when travelling to the USA.
Sorry to hear about your Amex related issue, but I feel you should have left out the last part of your post as it is pure speculation and doesn’t gain you any sympathy (quite the opposite most likely).
Yep the language in the default letter is not pleasant. Water off a ducks back to me, but Player 2 was very upset.
My business has quite high outgoings each month (Facebook ads being the highest) and it was pointed out to me that I could be putting that all through an Amex and racking up points.
So you planned to put thousands of business expense on personal cards? And now accuse Amex of racial profiling as the reason for cancelling the card?
Seems to be a recurring theme of self employed finding it difficult with Amex. Wonder if its just that these people mix personal and business income or personal and business expenses, or some past abuse by self employed resulting in Amex being extra careful.
@sh-uk Nah, Amex just follows the money.
There seems to be a little pattern here of correct information being provided by applicants to Amex, full disclosure, card is approved and issued. Then on an early specific review Amex probably does soon after a card is opened, that early review team, who are not the opening-accounts approval team, spots the person is self-employed, their model then adds a big number into that team’s internal risk rating model for the cardholder, and a big red light comes up flashing refer for review with a view to closing. Account is then suspended, cardholder may or may not get contacted to provide further info, account so recently opened with full disclosure is rapidly closed.
This has probably come about since covid, when suddenly anyone not in standard employment became much more risky to credit givers. And it sounds like the account-opening approval team’s model is not set up to give such a bad weighting to not-employees, as the early-account-review team is.
Amex should get its act together and not agree to open accounts for which they’ve been given full disclosure of someone being a not-employee, when the early account review team is going to put a much more negative weighting on that factor, a month down the line and close the account.
Perhaps @jj could confirm if this could be what’s going on.
It seems a bit odd because normally when *you* cancel a card you can have an outstanding balance on the account but as long as you pay it by the due date, it doesn’t generally result in threatening letters from Amex.
But it seems to me that people are trying to run before they can walk here. Establish a good relationship with Amex and down the line you will be ok doing the odd Paypal F & F or Billhop transaction. I’ve only ever declared a part-time salary, or more recently a relatively modest pension and only been declined once (last year, which was reversed after 3 months) and never been asked to prove my (or household) income.
Also the BA benefits are not worth domestic strife! Unless Player 2’s are equally invested in the hobby, just give them a card to go shopping with and do everything else yourself!
And I’m inclined to sympathise about racial profiling as some places can be unjustifiably crude about it (especially America, from my own observations over the years). I was selected for SSSS prior to our flight to IAD last December and there was a young Arab-American man sitting next to me who was nearly in tears and said he gets selected every time he flies! I cheered him up by telling him my Hispanic surname had clearly marked me out as a cartel jefe to Homeland Security!
If you put business spend on a personal card you are, effectively, fraudulently giving yourself Section 75 protection in case anything goes wrong.
You are also depriving Amex of the higher fees it charges on SME cards.
Feel free to decide which it takes more seriously, but both are important.
…
I also wondered, I’m sad to say, if there isn’t some profiling going on…Let’s just say that if @shahidaemran’s username is based on a real first and last name, then my real name is from the same part of the world. I don’t know… I’d hope that’s inconsequential, but a part of me does wonder based on some experiences I’ve had when travelling to the USA.
That’s a very serious claim to make. Racial profiling of that type is illegal. If the FCA determined that it were taking place, Amex would face a large fine; the individual responsible would certainly be dismissed and would be unlikely ever to work again in financial services; and senior managers would risk personal fines for misconduct if they had been found to be culpable or even negligent.
Do you have any evidence that it’s true? If so, you should follow up because the matter will be taken extremely seriously. If you have no evidence, my advice would be to withdraw and in future to avoid making baseless claims that can cause serious damage to the careers of innocent people. Amex underwriters are human: they cry, laugh and love just like you do, and they deserve to be treated with dignity, respect and honesty.
Realistically, racial profiling is extraordinarily unlikely because it would be so difficult to effect.
First, underwriting decisions are primarily based on statistical models that must be subject to robust controls. Unlike Google and Amazon, financial firms are simply not allowed to use naive machine learning or artificial intelligence models for the very reason that these models can so easily introduce accidental profiling; you can read recent discussion papers on the issue from both the UK and EU authorities if you’re really interested. When analyst-led models are prepared, firms’ model governance procedures will typically require a conscious step to evaluate the risk of discrimination against any legally protected characteristic, including race. For example, a firm would need to justify the use of employment status in a credit model, as rates of self-employment vary significantly between ethnic groups and could be regarded as a driver of indirect discrimination.
Where models are supported by humans, firms must have three levels of oversight – decisions will be reviewed within the department, independently within the firm, and by internal audit, which must not report to the Chief Executive. Each of these three lines of defence would be under a duty to report any rogue underwriter who racially profiled applications, and large sample sizes mean that the rogue underwriter could not remain undetected for long.
Additionally, all financial firms are required to have an independent mechanism for anonymous whistle-blowing. If any person anywhere in the firm became aware that a colleague were acting illegally by racially profiling borrowers, they would be under a duty to report that illegal act, and would be legally protected once they had exposed the wrongdoing.
Larger financial firms are also expected to have diversity, equity and inclusion committees and governance structures. These bodies will regard bias in underwriting as a key risk area, and will seek widespread engagement on the importance of avoiding bias. That will ensure that probing questions are regularly asked.
Finally, all of these controls are subject to regular review by independent compliance functions. And firms will receive regular visits from the regulator to ensure the control environment is effective.
It is, of course, possible that Amex is a rogue firm that tolerates illegality. But, to believe that, I would also have to believe that the conspiracy spreads throughout all three lines of defence, and is so deep-seated that no person in the business has ever been sufficiently concerned to call out the wrongdoing. On balance, I think that’s rather unlikely.
Are you really sure you were racially profiled? Or do you just feel resentful that Amex closed your account.
@Lady-London, I think you’re part way to what happened. I don’t think the team that reviews accounts will bump up the risk for self-employed borrowers; that will typically happen during the application process and will already have been baked-in to the credit assessment.
We don’t know the full picture as the OP has withdrawn from the conversation and thus declined to provide further details. What I think is happening is that accounts are flagged for human review if expenditure on the card appears excessive compared with the originally declared income, especially for newly opened accounts, as that could indicate some kind of financial crime or money laundering. It’s likely that the type of expenditure is relevant here, so buying flights or putting a deposit on a car would be less likely to raise an alert than gambling, Google advertising expenditure, or cash withdrawals.
Banks statements are then sought as evidence of income and/or the nature of expenditure. On review, one of three things then becomes clear: i) the borrower’s income does not match the original declaration; ii) the card is being improperly used for business purposes; or iii) the card is being repaid out of business funds rather than personal funds. If any of these three red flags are raised, the easiest and lowest risk approach is for Amex to close the account with no further questions asked.
Ta muchly @JJ.
There’s a lot of food for thought in your reply.And even though it doesn’t always work through the levels as planned, I also very much enjoyed your description of how hard it would be for a provider of credit to operate racism.
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