BA flight cancelled. Downgraded from Club to Traveller on earlier flight.
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ok. i guess if i reject the offer made by BA via CEDR, then CEDR will review the cancellation compensation offered as well as reviewing the correct downgrade reimbursement
I think they will only review the compensation if you ask them to, but as I mention above, there is a risk that they determine it to be £0 which is a possible interpretation! Unfortunately at CEDR it’s difficult to argue precise points.
@Lady London – I think you may have misunderstood the circumstances of this particular case. The cancellation compensation should not be £520 – it’s either £1040 or £0. The 50% in these circumstances (earlier rerouting than original schedule) is a BA invention. Within UK261, no compensation is payable at all so it depends whether CEDR/MCOL has regard for the post Brexit CJEU decision. If they do, the OP will get double the offer, if they do not have regard (and they are lawfully entitled to have no regard) for the decision, the OP will lose the £520 offered. That is why I asked the OP how much he thinks BA owes for the reimbursement beyond that which he has already received because he could potentially end up worse off.
Re BA taxes, they bundle the YQ into “taxes, fees and charges” but do not say it is a tax.
My £520 compensation is per seat JDB. Hence the £1040.
As you said earlier, although the CJEU/European case judgments about reroutes resulting in earlier landing times don’t strictly have to be read in by the UK since Brexit, yes of course there is also a risk of a £520 total outcome for the compensation or 0.
But the separate downgrade compensation, at 75% for the first seat plus the same for the second, is much more clearly an entitlement which will match and likely well exceed the paltry total of £520 BA is currently offering.
Therefore as we already know BA is going to have to pay that much just for downgrade, and it’s probably well more than £520, it’s well worth taking the whole thing to CEDR and if you get any compo as well it’s a bonus – but you’ll atill be better off than taking £520 total now.
I suppose I’m also assuming BA will try to get the passenger to sign a “full and final settlement” for the £520. Or if the passenger takes the £520 on the basis that it’s a good settlement point for compensation being halfway between the £0 and the £1040 it could be, if the passenger later says where’s our downgrade reimbursement BA may say that’s that and refuse to deal with it further.
If there was a way to accept the £520 keeping it clear that was the compensation element only and that the passenger still expects full downgrade reimbursement additionally, then like you I’d say think seriously about taking the £520 now because of the ambiguity about where UK legal decisions post-Brexit will go.
But based on the passenger’s account of communication from BA it’s seemed to me that they’re talking £520 to settle the whole claim hence me thinking CEDR has got to improve things.
i rejected their offer of zero reimbursement for the downgrade. they have replied via CEDR saying no cash fare refund is due. only the £80 difference in tax and the difference in avios. i presume at this point it goes to arbitration?
Define “Replied via CEDR”.
What is CEDR asking you to do?
If I ever saw a classic case of BA trying to run a passenger down so a claim against them will die it is this. They’ve left it with a team they’ve left incompetent, and are just running you around and fobbing you off.
If refusing to accept this position of British Airways means that CEDR will examine the case, and issue a judgment, then refuse. As BA will never make sense on this.
@JDB may have a more sensible reply.Not sure if I can really add anything sensible! I’m not entirely clear about the stage you have reached but it does sound as though you need to get CEDR to make a decision as BA isn’t willing to concede anything, the basis for which is also unclear.
This claim has been with CEDR for several months. Today ba issued a defence via a message through the CEDR process. CEDR have asked me to respond. My response will be that I want the dispute to go to arbitration
This claim has been with CEDR for several months. Today ba issued a defence via a message through the CEDR process. CEDR have asked me to respond. My response will be that I want the dispute to go to arbitration
You can do that, but you may also wish to address/correct any points in BA’s that are factually inaccurate or misleading. I don’t know what BA’s defence is but I imagine they will have thrown up various issues to obfuscate matters. If they have, it’s potentially worth simply restating that objectively there is no defence:- ie it should not be disputed that your original flight was cancelled, nor that your rerouting was in a downgraded class and that accordingly should be reimbursed on the basis of the formula in Article 10, calculated in accordance with the CJEU’s judgment in Mennens and that BA’s proposal simply to refund the difference in Avios/taxes fails to meet the statutory requirements. This reimbursement should be paid in addition to cancellation compensation. For the avoidance of doubt you seek this downgrading reimbursement and cancellation compensation per person, although you used a 241.
They haven’t really offered a defence except to say that I have received Avios and tax and that no more “refund” is due. They haven’t addressed the fact that I have been claiming reimbursement
Isn’t a refund the same as reimbursement? It certainly would be to most people.
As long as the amounts are in your favour what does it matter what they call it?
Yes, refund and reimbursement are in effect almost the same things, except here it’s simply important to use the words carefully in these specific circumstances. What BA has proposed is a refund as if you had made a voluntary change to your booking when you would just get a refund of the difference between the Avios for the different classes and that would be the correct process..
In this instance the OP is NOT seeking a refund, but rather a reimbursement of 75% his fare to give effect to his Article 10 rights engaged by an involuntary downgrade upon a post-cancellation rerouting. The distinction here is that the reimbursement required by Article 10 effectively includes a penalty on the airline, so the law requiring reimbursement of 75% on long haul is almost always requiring payment of a greater sum than a corresponding refund.
BA is deliberately confusing refund and reimbursement as that suits their book and they can sometimes get that past adjudicators so BA’s accidental error needs to be made crystal clear to CEDR.
PS it’s incredibly boring but the language of these things really matters to be confident of a successful claim at CEDR or MCOL. It’s the same with Article 9 ‘Right to Care’ that sometimes people refer to as duty of care which is a totally different concept, not explicitly provided for in UK261 and the English translation ‘Right to Care’ was not only carefully chosen drafting but is also specifically circumscribed, in a way duty of care cannot be.
Ok thanks. Just so I get the language correct is it article 10 of EC261? I’m not sure the onus should be on the customer to get the language right when CEDR and BA should be the professionals in this case and should both know which rules apply
Ok thanks. Just so I get the language correct is it article 10 of EC261? I’m not sure the onus should be on the customer to get the language right when CEDR and BA should be the professionals in this case and should both know which rules apply
In a perfect world yes, you are correct. However, BA relies upon people not being entirely sure of their rights or asking for the wrong thing and they can pull the wool over the eyes of adjudicators. In your case, BA seems to be saying, not sure what all the fuss is about, as we’ve already given him a refund so don’t worry CEDR, there’s nothing further you need to do. CEDR people aren’t very well paid and BA are artful dodgers…
Sadly this is the fact @Raynerdom. At CEDR there is also a wider range of adjudicators, shall we say, and a wider range of outcomes. CEDR has more freedom to get it wrong than the courts. Give it your best chance by using the correct wording as in the legislation you are calling on to support you.
Anything else increases the gap for BA to slip through. You have such a good claim for downgrade reimbursement don’t waste it. Naturally, especially since BA has done this runaround on you, whack in your claim for cancellation compensation too as it may possibly give you icing on the cake.
Ok thanks. Just so I get the language correct is it article 10 of EC261? I’m not sure the onus should be on the customer to get the language right when CEDR and BA should be the professionals in this case and should both know which rules apply
You don’t need to worry about that, but to be strictly correct it is EC261/2004 as retained and amended by the catchily named Air Passenger Rights and Air Travel Organisers’ Licensing (Amendment) (EU Exit) Regulations 2019
Sadly this is the fact @Raynerdom. At CEDR there is also a wider range of adjudicators, shall we say, and a wider range of outcomes. CEDR has more freedom to get it wrong than the courts. Give it your best chance by using the correct wording as in the legislation you are calling on to support you.
Anything else increases the gap for BA to slip through. You have such a good claim for downgrade reimbursement don’t waste it. Naturally, especially since BA has done this runaround on you, whack in your claim for cancellation compensation too as it may possibly give you icing on the cake.
thanks. the cancellation compensation and the downgrade reimbursement are all part of the same claim. so far i have been offered £520 for the cancellation and zero for the downgrade reimbursement
This is confusing. In the post above you say you’ve been offered nothing for the downgrade but in this post on page 2 08.55 31st August you wrote this
However they are offering nothing for downgrade reimbursement as they say they have refunded me 46250 avios and £160 in taxes
Surely this is all part of the same claim?
I hope your submissions to CEDR are clear because they only have limited time to work this sort of stuff out themselves.
If BA say “we have already refunded x amount” and you can’t clearly articulate what you originally paid, what you are claiming, what you’ve already been reimbursed and a balance owing figure then the arbitrator will side with BA even though it might not be the correct figure because they have made the more lucid case.
@BA Flyer IHG Stayer – it’s a complete mess! After endless questions, I thought we might have got there, but when I read the 17.37 post, I just despair and give up. As you say, if someone can’t make a clear case, it opens the door for BA to win.
Apologies for any confusion. I was trying to draw the distinction between refunds and reimbursements ( as I have been warned to many times on this thread) and what I have been offered within the CEDR process and what ba have refunded outside the CEDR process. Would it help clarify things if I showed a timeline of the last 6 months since my cancelled flight?
To be honest no I don’t think it would help. Sorry.
You cannot separate what you claimed / got back inside and outside of the CEDR process.
If BA have already given you back X amount of avios and / or cash then you MUST account for it in your CEDR claim.
BA will certainly include it in their submissions.
ok . here’s the timeline. as you will see BA customer service informed me that the refund of avios and taxes was seperate from downgrade reimbursement and so i didnt include it in my claim.
4th march: ba flight 280 from lax to lhr 18:00 cancelled with 12 hours notice. Originally booked 2 club class tickets with avios and 2for1 voucher. Rebooked onto ba flight 282 15:45 in economy
5th march : applied through BA claim form for cancellation compensation and downgrade compensation received a “we’re on the case” reply
9th march : after advice from the HFP forum I updated the downgrade part of my claim to be 75% reimbursement for both passengers
30th march: BA reject my claim for cancellation compensation as the previous plane was stuck in Toronto. They make no mention of downgrade reimbursement in this email
I reply saying they have made no reference to the downgrade reimbursement
31st march: BA email me to suggest I contact customer relations
31st march: I contact customer relations via online chat. I ask for downgrade reimbursement. I am told I can be refunded avios and taxes via the chat but that I would need to contact them via the BA customer relations portal in order to get the 75% downgrade reimbursement. They send me 46250 avios but no taxes are refunded until late august. See chat below
Neha T (31/03/2023, 15:33:05): Dominic, I have raised the request to refund for the amount that is tax difference. I will not be able to share the details for the tax difference as it will be done by the refund team. For the refund of avios and taxes, we will send you the email. Going further, for the CAA rule compensation please proceed with the complaint link.
null (31/03/2023, 15:35:06): ok as long as receiving tax and avios refund doesnt exclude me from the caa reimbursement
Neha T (31/03/2023, 15:36:22): Do not worry, they are seperately handled, as in this platform we can only refund what you have paid for to the original source. And for the compensation you will need to raise the request with customer relation team.
null (31/03/2023, 15:36:30): ok31st march: I file a new claim through the BA customer relations portal for the 75% reimbursement for both passengers
5th April: BA respond to my new claim by apologising and adding 5000 avios to my account
I reply reiterating my request for downgrade reimbursement for both passengers
9th may: after no further reply from BA I file a dispute with CEDR. My claim is in 2 parts. I claim £260 each as our flight landed more than 2 hours before it was scheduled to land. I also claim £1334.25 each which I calculated from 75% of the cost of buying avios plus taxes for a 1 way flight in club from lax to lhr. So a total of £3188.50
27th June: CEDR accept my case
30th august: BA reply via CEDR and offer £520 as cancellation compensation.
30th august : BA reply via CEDR to claim no downgrade reimbursement is due as they have already refunded avios and taxes
31st August: I reject the offer of £520 for the entire claim and again request that they make downgrade reimbursement
11th September: BA reply to my rejection again saying no further payment is due
Just to add to the timeline. BA didn’t refund the taxes until late august. 3 months after my CEDR submission so I couldn’t have included it in my dispute.
Not sure if this has made any more progress, but thought I’d add an interesting response I’ve had from BA in a similar case as it may be relevant.
I had 4 tickets (spread across 2 bookings) booked Lon/ORD NYC/Lon in First back in APril, using Avios and 241 vouchers. The night before the outbound BA cancelled the flight. They rebooked me on an AA flight within 30mins of the original flight time, but in Business rather than First (despite me offering to go to ANY of their US destinations in First, they were supremely unhelpful).I claimed for the 75% reimbursement on return. Received the usual tosh re no compensation as it was on time etc etc despite me not claiming for that and being explicit it was 75% downgrade reimbursement that i wanted.
Fast forward via a several exchanges including them refunding the fare difference and avios for 1 person despite me telling them not to, and then deadlock so i filed with CEDR. BA requested multiple deadlines, and after the final one CEDR issued a non-response letter and assigned an arbitrator. The next day BA replied.
Their defence is that: “ Articles 10 of EC Regulation 261/2004 refers to the passenger being downgraded on the flight they were booked to travel on (the affected flight). The Passengers weren’t downgraded on the Flight booked, the Flight was cancelled. The Passengers were rebooked on American Airlines and accepted a lower cabin. Therefore, Article 10 does not apply”
Well i hadn’t seen that one coming!! I double checked the regulations and this is absolutely not the case. It is class travelled vs class booked, no mention that it must be the exact same flight….
I’ve provide my clear thoughts in my response, and it’s now int he queue for the arbitrator to decide.
Thanks thesecretSanta. My case is also with the adjudicator. I should hear in the next few days. Ba missed loads of deadlines with me too and refunded Avios ( but not taxes) only after assuring me that it wouldn’t affect my claim for reimbursement. They eventually refunded the taxes 5 months after the flight when they wanted to include in their defence that they had already refunded me Avios and taxes!
I’ll let you all know the result
@thesecretsanta neither Article 10 nor the Interpretative Guidelines specifies either way so it is potentially arguable. Article 10 does refer to the ‘operating carrier’ and of course BA wasn’t the operating carrier for the flight on which you were downgraded. I think the bigger issue is that ultimately you voluntarily accepted to be downgraded. Yes, it was faute de mieux but that doesn’t technically really change anything.
BA often bamboozles CEDR with these sorts of anrguments and unfortunately their adjudicators rarely have the experience or clarity of thought of judges.
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