Buying a Tesla and earning points / cashback

[MF176]

BJ wrote:

Can HfP Tesla owners report back on their reliability experience please? I seen a lot of bad press on their reliability in recent months along with suggestions that Tesla are withholding data in an effort to make it appear less poor than it is.

3 years and 60k+ miles later, it’s the best car I’ve ever had. Reliable, hassle free, and a genuine joy to drive every day.

[TGLoyalty]

As per dst87 had an EV since late 2020 and honestly wouldn’t change it for an ICE.

Wake up in the morning knowing I have 220ish real world miles which gets me pretty much anywhere in the U.K. I have any need to visit and anywhere else there’s fast chargers, way more than you think, and can add 100 miles in the time it takes to spend a penny and get a coffee/food.

Needing a Battery change after 8-10 is not a fact at all, most batteries come with 8-10 year warranties so they aren’t failing the next day. If you charge at fast DC chargers a lot and I mean vast majority you might incur an issue with capacity loss.

[Lady London]

There’s a wave of cheap end EV’s due out early 2025-2026. Citroen, Fiat, Hyundai for starters. I doubt tariff barriers can stop the Asian ones from eventually getting through either. It’s the only way the move to electric can become widespread.

As for financing them advantageously for points then putting through a business probably has a few wrinkles and for ongoing payments then major financers seem to have it stitched up so look for more niche providers / finncial instruments.

[strickers]

The fundamental problem with import tariffs is that they don’t impact the manufacturer, it’s the consumer that takes the hit.

[Lady London]

Agreed @Strickers. All import tariffs do is make the consumer pay more. Plus the inefficiency effects of forcing choice of poorer alternatives that costs everyone, and pours sawdust into efficient manufacturing and supply chain gearboxes.

Along the lines @JDB has said I am particularly fed up with European car manufacturers who’ve not innovated and done nothing more than force fit an EV motor into the saloon car shells they keep making, that most custoners even ICE ones don’t need for much of their lives.

Most of us need a box on wheels that can be differently configured according to our life stage. Such as ferrying kids and their gear around, moving to university, travelling and camping, carrying around working or trade kit, help kids move stuff to their new house,pursue hobbies or chores dragging kit around, etc.

Perhaps 10-15 years, and only for some, when a saloon car works, such as to take customers out to lunch. The rest of the time, give us tbe choice of a flexible box. EV’s with no space needed for drive chain running in centre the length of the cabin, a good chance to innovate.

The Chinese and Koreans and Japanese have thought about this and are providing EV options particularly at the bottom end to give consumers an EV tbat works for them.

And meanwhile European car manufacturers fail to innovate and whine to governments for protection and subsidies (which on the price of an EV to the consumer, go into the pockets of the manufacturers).

I’m happy if my taxes do subsidise the car industry in UK & Europe as there are many defensive reasons to keep a car / vehicle industry. But I am not seeing the manufacturers in UK & Europe innovating and addressing too many more EV buyers, than the relatively rare these days saloon car man. Whereas the Asian manufcturers have understood it and are delivering it.

[strickers]

When the Japanese car industry was dominant and innovating, we courted them and ended up with the likes of Nissan and Toyota opening factories. Whilst Brexit has made repeating that difficult for the UK, it should be possible the for the EU to do so. The fact that the EU manufacturers have so much political clout means it will never happen. Protectionist policies will always fail in the long run.

[Lady London]

There is some hope Strickers as the recent intoduction of penalty tariffs for better EV products from, primarily, China, by France seems to have stimulated Asian manufacturers’ plans for EV battery plants and assembly plants in Europe. Although mostly both European and non European EV investment is landing at more Eastern European sites.

Fiat is even starting production at Eastern European sites instead of at existing sites they have capacity at in Italy.

[strickers]

I think the quality of the cars coming out of China has really surprised people.

[JDB]

strickers wrote:

I think the quality of the cars coming out of China has really surprised people.

Some of them are also so swish inside, they make even Tesla seem a bit dated. The Chinese used to hanker after western brands, but some of their domestic cars like HONGQI, BYD, NIO and others have really captured the imagination with brand new designs inside and out, packed with tech and gimmicks, customisable, fun colours etc. plus they are a whole lot cheaper. Western car firms are also struggling to sell ICE cars there because it’s hard to get new licence plates in many big cities unless it’s for an EV. I haven’t tried driving one, but as a passenger, a great experience and we look forward to trying some new ones this year.

[strickers]

@JDB The only thing holding them back at the moment is the availability of spare parts. I did look briefly at a BYD Seal, what a fabulous car with some great reviews. Unfortunately, there are lots of stories of owners waiting months for even basic spares. It appears they are a victim of their own success, I wonder how many years before China becomes renowned for quality goods instead of cheap tat? The Chinese middle classes certainly won’t accept mediocre quality any more, maybe it’s automotive that will lead the way?

[JDB]

@strickers – yes, they can make the cars but they don’t really yet have infrastructure in Europe to retail them or provide after sales service, but I have little doubt they will get there. Apparently it’s been a bit of an issue for shippers who unload cars at the docks in the UK without the manufacturers having organised for them to be picked up, treating the dock as a temporary car park for weeks. As you say, domestic consumers are getting much more demanding and they just love innovation.

[BJ]

Thanks all fir feedback on EV and reliability Apologies @OP for prompting the thread to go off on a tangent but hopefully you have found itvusedul and interesting too.

@BBB, the bad press I was referring to was not right-wing press v EV but reliability of Tesla v other EV and reporrsvthay Tesla were manipulating data to suggest it was less poor than it is.

On running costs, the best time to own and run an EV is clearly going to end soon it is obvious that loss of fuel duty from ICE needs to be replaced.

On origin of EV; are most Tesla not already nuilt in China and India?

On take-up; based on my neighbours recent car purchases it is hard to believe demand is slowing in the UK. On my last visit to Thailand the change was astounding, where every other car used to be a Toyota or Honda, the roads in Bangkok now seems like a flood of BYD and other Chinese EV. I read an article while there that gas stations may in future change to battery stations if models can be developed for battery leasing and rapid replacement to cut loses on charging time. However, I imagine that improved battery technology will mean such never gets off the ground.

On the later comments on styling, I always thought tge Tesla styling a bit odd in that it is remarkably similar to a 1990s Hyundai Lantra. Not that I think there is anything wrong with that design because it looked good then and still does now, it is just that the shape of cars moved on in the last 25 years.

[Rui N.]

A lot of UK Teslas are indeed built in China. Not India.
They also have a factory in Berlin.

[TGLoyalty]

@BJ Nio is already at the forefront of battery swap technology and the great thing is they can provide newer batteries as technology changes even for some of the older models. But I do think this will still be relatively niche globally.

Tariffs on Chinese EVs is interesting because the cars are selling at bargain basement prices but in most cases the new EV brands like polestar, Nio, Xpeng etc are making significant losses because the technology costs far more to produce than the consumer is willing to pay for those brands.

The Europeans aren’t just sitting on their hands they have existing franchises, workforces, overheads, share prices etc to take care of, agreements to renegotiate etc so are just having to navigate the transition differently. Also Audi/VW/BMW are just going to change what they believe is their design USP overnight because others have lots of screens etc theyre going to find the best way to move forward that fits with their brands.

[BJ]

@TGL, what’s the outlook for SUV EV? I don’t nean for mums on the school run, I mean something that can get me off-read up in the hills abd can cope with highland roads in the snow? I’ll have a look but haven’t even contemplated it so far tbh.

[TGLoyalty]

I think you’ll find more proper SUV EVs hitting the market over the next 2-3 years.

Range Rover has already announced they will launch an EV variant soon and there will be no compromise on its off road DNA, but probably with a price tag to match.

Rivian have real off road capable pick up/SUV tech right now but they won’t be hitting the U.K. any time soon. VW group have announced a partnership but no actual concrete news on where they tech will actually be used but speculation is it’s for their new Scout brand.

Hummer, Merc, Jeep all have proper SUV EVs either announced as concepts or actually on the way

Porsche have Macan EV now and Cayenne EV on the way, I wouldn’t class them as truely off road capable, but you can see the progression for the tech is on its way for proper SUVs.

BYD has the YangWang E8 but it isn’t just an EV it’s more like a range extender electric car also £120k+ and sales are low. I think it’s a bit of a real life concept car to show what BYD can do rather than a an example of where they are really going for SUV EV tech.

Also my last post meant to say “ Also Audi/VW/BMW aren’t just …”

[BBbetter]

TGLoyalty wrote:

The Europeans aren’t just sitting on their hands they have existing franchises, workforces, overheads, share prices etc to take care of, agreements to renegotiate etc so are just having to navigate the transition differently. Also Audi/VW/BMW are just going to change what they believe is their design USP overnight because others have lots of screens etc theyre going to find the best way to move forward that fits with their brands.

Thats hilarious. ‘Agreements to renegotiate’ is the excuse for not coming up with good products? Other car makers dont negotiate?
On one side, they are losing to Tesla on efficiency, software and superchargers while they are losing to Chinese and Korean makers on cost.
This is what happens when they rely on government protection – to be fair the governments are to blame as well, for stopping companies cutting jobs and making them efficient.
And it shows up in the products. If they cannot come up with good products in premium category, how will they compete better in mass market / lower range? Currently surviving on their brand image and Tesla’s own goal in quality of finishing.

[BJ]

Thanks @TGL, I’ll make an effort to educate myself and follow developments going forward

@BBB, so what do you think are the best brand EV at the moment? Comments on mass market in Europe are interesting, car sales in Europe in the last decade have been increasingly dominated by European brands and/or built cars. Only Hyundai and Kia have gatecrashed the party but at the same time Toyota and Honda have gone backwards. Is there really any reason to believe brand-preferences will change even if the market is flooded by Eastern brands that are both cheaper and better? I always remember when Virgin cola was launched, so many surveys and taste tests at the time suggested people expressed a strong preference for the Virgin cola over Coke and Pepsi until they knew what it was, where is Virgin cola now? Demonstrably better and cheaper does not always equate with better sales

[TGLoyalty]

@BBB Tesla and Chinese manufacturers are either direct sales, agency and keeping far more margin themselves rather than giving it to dealers. Though some are swapping to a franchisee model with brand new deals.

They have brand new greenfield factories with freshly recruited workforce without 30-40 years of commitments to their workforces (you’re not wrong on cutting jobs and making efficiencies being more difficult in UK and EU but then that’s better for society?), their suppliers and their dealers. So no it’s not just about not coming up with good products.

Tesla had great efficiency that’s true it’s their USP (but they are slowly losing that edge to Lucid and other start ups) but their cars are anything but premium and the models themselves like S are up to 10+ years old, all that expensive body shop tooling etc they haven’t had to replace yet! They also make a hell of a lot of their profit from GHG credit sales which are becoming less and less lucrative as more EVs are sold by the traditional OEMs and more competitors selling a EV and the associated credits. Superchargers are being opened to everyone and others like Chargepiont, Instavolt, Gridserve and Ionity are closing the gap rapidly.

The Chinese might be better on price but they absolutely are not that much better on cost, China has lower cost labour and let’s be fair a higher efficiency market. Put bluntly work ethic is different and they have brand new facilities, the newest tooling etc, in some heavily subsidised by the government. Hence the tariffs … but go look at their account statements they make a loss on every sale.

As BJ says can launch 100 colas but Pepsi and Coke rule the world the demise of Ford, VW group, Porsche probably won’t be in our lifetimes though there might be chapter 11’s, buyouts and consolidation. A Skoda, VW, Audi in exactly the same segment might be a thing of the past.