Cancelled flight, shifting from BA to LCC, what happens to Avios?

[SandsofEss]

Hi,

I’d appreciate some advice.

My wife and daughter were due to fly from LGW to AGP this Saturday, in Club Europe using a Cabin Upgrade voucher.

Her flight has been cancelled. We’ve been offered alternatives on BA, but they’re very early in the morning and therefore not feasible.

I understand we can insist BA routes us via an alternative carrier. The only realistic alternative is an easyJet flight at 12:40.

I have some questions:

1) Will it be relatively straightforward to persuade BA to book us on the easyJet flight? Is there a specific obligation we should reference?

2) The original flight was booked with Avios and a Cabin Upgrade Voucher (which I believe would otherwise have expired imminently). What can we reasonably expect from BA in terms of a refund/reinstatement of the voucher?

Any advice gratefully received.

[JDB]

In answer to your questions:

1) no, it won’t be easy to get BA to book you onto any easyJet flight. Not impossible but extremely unlikely. If they refuse, note the date/time and who wouldn’t reroute you. Following the refusal, ask them if they will agree to refund the cost of you booking yourself onto the easyJet flight.

2) this is unfortunately quite messy. If you need to rebook yourself and then reclaim the cost from BA, you will have to weigh up the options, taking into account the cost differential between the two flights.

Option 1 is to get BA to refund you the Avios and voucher (which will have its original expiry date) and simply claim the difference from BA, but some will tell you that by asking for a refund you compromise your entitlement to the rerouting claim price difference.

Option 2 is not to ask for a refund but make a claim for the full cost of the easyJet replacement tickets, but then easyJet will definitely retain the Avios and also probably retain the voucher, even though they ought to return it as you travelled in economy. You could then potentially go to ADR to get the voucher if you are up for the fight.

Either way, you need to decide promptly because everyone else on the cancelled flight will be chasing the same limited seats but keep a cool head rather than jumping into anything.

One consideration is that if the easyJet flight isn’t that far apart in time from the BA flight offered, you may not be entitled to claim any of the rerouting cost from BA. Their rerouting offer needs to be reasonable, but so does your decision and unfortunately, a bit of convenience, ie not such an early flight might not be sufficient.

[SandsofEss]

Thank you. It sounds as though this will be trickier than I anticipated. An edge case without an easy solution.

The original flight was the 16:55. The preferred easyJet alternative was the 12:40.

It sounds as though we may be better off accepting alternative BA flights.

It appears we have two options. The 06:40 in Club Europe, or the 19:40 in Economy. Both would necessitate taking a taxi that the original plan wouldn’t have. What are my chances of getting the taxi fare reimbursed by BA to enable us to accept one of these re-routes. Slim from the sounds of it?

[NorthernLass]

Depending on where you live, is there a better-timed BA service from LHR/LCY you could ask to be moved to?

Having said that – BA is still selling seats on the 19.40 LGW departure, so if that’s not the cancelled flight you can ask to be moved to that.

If they haven’t offered it, it could be because they are currently charging over £1000 for a one-way CE seat 😱

They can’t refuse you on the grounds that there are no avios seats available.

[JDB]

@SandsofEss – I think that given one of the options offered by BA is less than three hours later (albeit in a lower class) vs your preferred one on easyJet, that is more than three hours earlier, BA’s offer of rerouting might be considered reasonable. While neither BA flight is ideal for you, it’s certainly the cleaner option.

Re taxi, possibly for the early morning one as that means leaving before public transport starts from many areas on a Saturday but on a goodwill basis rather than entitlement. Your wife and daughter would also potentially be entitled to compensation for the cancellation at four days notice which is also a time frame that makes it difficult for BA to claim ‘extraordinary circumstances’ so it’s worth claiming for that plus the taxi and see what they say.

[SandsofEss]

Sadly not. The other London airports are further away, and the latest departure is the 09:20 from LHR.

I hadn’t realised the 19:40 had CE availability. I suspect it wasn’t showing because there’s only one seat left and it’ll be my wife and daughter travelling.

[SandsofEss]

@JDB Thanks. Sounds like that’s the way to go.

Am I right in thinking our only entitlement for the downgraded class would be a reinstatement of the imminently-expiring Cabin Upgrade voucher?

PS – I accidentally hit ‘Report’ on your post. Sorry.

[Ihar]

This is under Article 5 of 261 – so you should get compensation AND Article 8 should apply – be allowed re-routing at your convenience (if seats are available). You’d have to look at the test cases for that interpretation.

BA might pay for your taxi if reasonable – otherwise you might have an uphill struggle having paid for Easyjet tickets with your own money…

[JDB]

SandsofEss wrote:

@JDB Thanks. Sounds like that’s the way to go.

Am I right in thinking our only entitlement for the downgraded class would be a reinstatement of the imminently-expiring Cabin Upgrade voucher?

PS – I accidentally hit ‘Report’ on your post. Sorry.

Your entitlement to reimbursement (effectively compensation) for the downgrade is 50% of the fare paid for a flight of this distance plus 50% of the cash element that isn’t a disbursement. However, this is all rather complicated by the use of the voucher. For the cash element, although you may have paid £1pp, the APD paid should be £13 in economy vs £28 in Club but that’s built into the Avios you paid. As the voucher is close to expiry, I would be asking BA for 50% of the Avios unless you have an imminent better use of the voucher. This doesn’t properly compensate you for the voucher but may still give a better overall outcome.

[AJA]

I think you may be entitled to both cancellation compensation and downgrade reimbursement if you accept the economy flights.

Do as @JDB suggests on the downgrade. Also that is for both passengers. So twice the amounts.

Out of interest what flight number is the re-route? There are two flights leaving LGW at 19:40 – BA2646 operated by BA and BA8079 operates by Vueling. If you can I’d be pushing for the BA operated flight.

[AJA]

Also there is the right to care per Article 9 so your wife and daughter can buy food and drink at LGW while waiting for their flight.

[SandsofEss]

Thanks all for taking the time to share your advice – we really appreciate it.

An important detail I missed off my first post in a rush – the cancellation email was sent through 14 days and 12 hours before the flight. She only noticed it last night.

Sadly I think that means we’re entitled to far less support from BA.

So, the plan is to ask to be put on the 19:40, then see where we net out with an Avios refund afterwards.

The main thing is she gets there, after all.

I’ll post an update when I have it.

[AJA]

Ah that is a big detail to miss out. Definitely no compensation payable. Rerouting and right to care and downgrade reimbursement still apply.

[JDB]

AJA wrote:

Ah that is a big detail to miss out. Definitely no compensation payable. Rerouting and right to care and downgrade reimbursement still apply.

The OP won’t have any ‘right to care’ entitlement in these circumstances because it would not meet the “necessary, appropriate and reasonable” test, failing at the first hurdle.

[AJA]

@JDB I think you’re wrong.

As per Article 5 Cancellation
1. In case of cancellation of a flight, the passengers concerned shall:
(b) be offered assistance by the operating air carrier in accordance with Article 9(1)(a) and 9(2).

The rest of Article 9 may not apply but they have the right to (a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time; and 2. In addition, passengers shall be offered free of charge two telephone calls, telex or fax messages, or e-mails.

[JDB]

@AJA – no, I’m afraid it is you that is wrong. I am quite aware of the text you cite, but quoting phrases isn’t sufficient, one also needs to understand what they mean and how they apply.

What you are suggesting is that BA is legally obliged to offer the pax a freebie when the purpose of the regulation is absolutely not to do that, but simply to indemnify a pax for any additional costs they have necessarily incurred as a result of a cancellation or delay.

If the pax had turned up for the 12.40 to be told it was cancelled and they were rebooked at 19.40 then yes, they would be entitled to refreshments during that wait. If the only rebooking option had been the next day, one might be entitled to a hotel many circumstances.

Here, because of the advance notice, the pax would turn up at the normal time ahead of the revised flight so cannot be said “necessarily” to have incurred any special expense – i.e. they had “no waiting time”. The potential absence of food on the flight flowing from the downgrade also doesn’t entitle anyone to ‘right to care’ – that is supposed to be covered under the Article 10 reimbursement arrangements.

[AJA]

@JDB with respect you are effectively talking about right to care only being provided because of a delay or cancellation on the day. That is not how the regulation is worded. The right to care exists from the moment the flight is cancelled, even if notified months in advance.

I accept that you are saying because they are advised in advance, they won’t experience a delay physically in the airport as they could turn up 2 hours later than they might have done.

But they still experienced a cancellation and hence will incur a delay in arriving at their destination so are entitled to right to care.

In fact, the interpretive guidelines, in paragraph 4.3.2. “Provision of meals, refreshments and accommodation”” state that: “The intention of the Regulation is that the needs of passengers waiting for their return flight or re-routing are to be adequately taken care of. The extent of adequate care will have to be assessed on a case-by-case basis, having due regard to the needs of passengers in the relevant circumstances and the principle of proportionality (i.e.: according to the waiting time). The price paid for the ticket or temporality of the inconvenience suffered should not interfere with the right of care.”

Note that final sentence. It specifically says that an inconvenience of a short delay does not negate right to care, merely that the care needs to be proportionate.

Furthermore, the downgrade reimbursement per Article 10 is refunding the fare to put the passenger in the position of only paying for an economy seat. In accepting the downgrade, you are saying that the reimbursement of fare from BA negates the obligation to provide right to care because of the cancellation.

However, I don’t see where the interpretive guidelines link right to care to downgrade reimbursement. The right to care exists directly as a result of the cancellation and separately from the downgrade. The fact that passengers are placed in economy class does not mean that they are no longer entitled to right to care.

Therefore, it seems reasonable to claim for a sandwich and a drink each to eat because of being delayed in reaching their destination due to BA cancelling their original flight. Whether BA will pay is another issue but the right to claim under Article 9 “Right to care” exists because BA cancelled their original flight.

I would also argue being re-routed in economy does not comply with Article 8(1)(b) “re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity.” That does not mean the passenger is entitled to additional compensation but reimbursing the cost of a sandwich and drink is not compensation. It is reimbursing reasonable expenses incurred as a result of the cancellation.

The reality is also that the downgrade reimbursement should be paid within 7 days of the downgrade happening. You and I both know that BA will likely fight this anyway as they have form for claiming that downgrade reimbursement is only for instances of it happening on the day. I think it is possible BA will say that because the passengers accepted the re-routing in economy in advance of the flight, they placed themselves there and therefore BA doesn’t need to pay downgrade reimbursement. This is, of course, incorrect.

[JDB]

@AJA – where I think you are going wrong is that you are not only reading/quoting documents that are twenty years old but then misunderstanding them, depriving them of all their purposive intent and ignoring later decisions. These rules have to be applied by the NEBs, courts and arbitrators in the real world.

Downgrade reimbursement is supposed to cover all of the inconveniences/reduced comfort. There is no ‘right to care’ element. See decided cases.

The downgrade is entirely separate from the cancellation and rerouting and the combination of the two grants you no extra rights. The application or non-application of “comparable transport conditions” also gives rise to no extra rights; another red herring.

There is no ‘right to care’ unless it is “necessary, appropriate and reasonable” but you insist you know better than the ECJ that established this basis. Refreshments are not necessary when you leave home at a later time to catch a later flight following a cancellation. If you were waiting at the airport or abroad it might be different but here this is just like any other trip so BA cannot be expected to feed you.

It really is quite ludicrous, like asking the council for injury compensation when you tripped on a paving stone but suffered no injury.

It’s no wonder CEDR and MCOL is clogged up…

[Ihar]

@AJA – you missed some words from the 261. “(a) meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to the waiting time;”

There isn’t any waiting time – the flight is cancelled 14 days before departure. They can take an alternate flight at an alternate date/time, and if downgraded get the relevant reimbursement. @JDB is 100% correct.