Creation Financial Services bashing

[Crafty]

Lady London, please could you post your complaints about the forum software in the thread that is for complaints about the forum software? You’re making it quite hard to achieve the goal of this thread, which is Creation Financial Services bashing!

[WillPS]

Lady London wrote:

JDB wrote:

BP wrote:

I was much less open about my MS activities before the accounts got blocked I think you’ll find. I always used code words too. But yes I was (am?) a big MS player and it is all within the rules 🙂

@BP you may have forgotten your posts of 14 Aug at 22.30 and 22.31! No codes. I heard a few days later and was a sent a screenshot saying that this was « la goutte d’eau qui a fait déborder le vase » and set off a chain of events. To be fair it was in response to another brag and it was after dinner.

********another carefully typed reply post typed one finger on a phone painstakingly had just been lost thanks to that b l o o d y captcha. **** sick and tired of my efforts being wasted. WHAT IS THE FIX DATE?????

Before you submit, highlight the text you’ve authored and select ‘Copy’. If submission fails for whatever reason, just Paste it in again.

I’m not sure that demanding a fix for a service you pay nothing towards is the right way to proceed.

[Lady London]

Thanks WillPS I’m aware of the tech. Should not be necessary. Basic stuff should work.

A fix date might make it feel better when work is wasted.

[HughM]

I have had a British Airways refund, credited to the closed Creation Premium Rewards card via Curve. The Creation card closed for spending on Curve at the end of September, and will not now connected to curve. Nevertheless the link is viable for credits. This, in turn, keeps the account open, beyond my anniversary date. The annivesary night voucher has not showed up, and I have complained. Feel in a stronger position about an account that is still open, in credit which they have not refunded (I asked for that, too).

[Rui N.]

I think that’s grasping at straws there.

[wideboys182]

Just got my letter and refers to the T&C Section 6 of the Term and Conditions for IHG Rewards. So if I read my letter correct they issue notice to IHG that my account is closed prior to the full notice therefore breaches the clause 14 of their own terms

[wideboys182]

Wow after reading the letter a few more times.. not sure how FOS will not have a case against Creation.

So we have a credit agreement with Creation which in turn gives us IHG points. They are closing our agreement with them which in turns has no impact on the IHG terms. Because it’s not IHG who didn’t credit my account with my missing points it’s Creation not communicating to them to add my points so it’s a Creation issue which leds me to believe that though you have 2 months notice in the back end they change the account status. I was told I could use my card up to Dec and ensure balance is paid off by 3 Dec. Which it was so my complaint is going to the FOS as I am financially out of pocket for the points not rewarded for when my account was till active. My account closed 3 Dec so have 2-3 months of uncredited points missing.

[Blindman67]

Lady London wrote:

ge to

So after reading this thread for a while and now having received the rejection letter back from Creation today.

All I want is the anniversary voucher-due 3rd Jan-(Points not transferred in the notice period were negligible)

Do I have to go down the FOS router before MCOL or can I just go straight to MCOL ?

My complaint is Unfair terms of the contract-I had spent the £10k and the account would have been open on the 3rd Jan if Creation had not closed it on 3rd Dec.

Has anyone actually started MCOL?

I see a lot of comments but no outcomes.

TA

EDIT
Was a reply with quotes to LL further up the thread.Seems to not include that….

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[marks7389]

wideboys182 wrote:

Wow after reading the letter a few more times.. not sure how FOS will not have a case against Creation.

So we have a credit agreement with Creation which in turn gives us IHG points. They are closing our agreement with them which in turns has no impact on the IHG terms. Because it’s not IHG who didn’t credit my account with my missing points it’s Creation not communicating to them to add my points so it’s a Creation issue which leds me to believe that though you have 2 months notice in the back end they change the account status. I was told I could use my card up to Dec and ensure balance is paid off by 3 Dec. Which it was so my complaint is going to the FOS as I am financially out of pocket for the points not rewarded for when my account was till active. My account closed 3 Dec so have 2-3 months of uncredited points missing.

What did they say about clause 6 in your decision letter? No mention in mine, though they omitted to respond at all about the missing points and only confirmed afterwards by email that they weren’t going to credit them when I pushed it.

What clause 6 actually says:

“Points accrued and rewards issued are subject to the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club”. Fair enough but the points and rewards actually need to be issued for that statement to apply.

“Please see http://www.ihgrewardsclub.com for full terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club, including all up-to-date redemption values”. Again, fine. If the IHG Rewards scheme is devalued or terminated, or IHG closes a member account etc. no comeback on Creation.

“Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club may be modified without notice to cardholders, and services and benefits may be added or removed at any time”. Again, fair enough. No obligation on Creation to inform cardholders of changes to the IHG terms that may impact their use of points and rewards earned through the card once they’ve been issued.

The only way I can see his could possibly have any relevance is if IHG had taken their own decision to refuse to credit points earned via Creation, under their (modified or otherwise) terms and conditions. And they would have had to have done that only for several hundred members who happen to be the same ones for which Creation has made a business decision to close accounts, whilst at the same time allowing them to continue to earn points by other means and redeem them.

That seems highly unlikely, and there’s absolutely no suggestion that is the case. If by same bizarre turn of events it were the case Creation would be telling us so we go and bother IHG instead….

[wideboys182]

marks7389

My letter states that “Points ceased being transferred to IHG after notification of the account closure was issued.”

So this is clear they notify IHG my account is closed before the 3 Dec therefore breaching the 2 month notice period. As I had no notice that point earned during those 2 months are not rewarded.

So I will be leaning on the “pay an award for financial loss” on my letter given the missing points equals to at least a free night in to end hotel.

What’s even worse the letter goes on to say “… to tal this through, please call me on …” then a footnote to state “Please call between 9am and 5pm Monday to Friday…our complaints phone lines are currently closed…”

Jokers

[Rui N.]

Why do you say they’ve notified IHG of anything?

[marks7389]

Rui N. wrote:

Why do you say they’ve notified IHG of anything?

You beat me to it… There’s no reason why they’d need to notify IHG. They’ve obviously ceased the transfers – they don’t need to do anything more than that to stop them going across.

In fact I suspect that so far at least Creation has done nothing beyond block the cards and transfers of points and vouchers, and put a stop to any further annual fees being charged which is why the online accounts say “restricted functionality”. Whether that amounts to closure is probably a moot point though.

[Lady London]

wideboys182 wrote:

marks7389

My letter states that “Points ceased being transferred to IHG after notification of the account closure was issued.”

So this is clear they notify IHG my account is closed before the 3 Dec therefore breaching the 2 month notice period. As I had no notice that point earned during those 2 months are not rewarded.

So I will be leaning on the “pay an award for financial loss” on my letter given the missing points equals to at least a free night in to end hotel.

What’s even worse the letter goes on to say “… to tal this through, please call me on …” then a footnote to state “Please call between 9am and 5pm Monday to Friday…our complaints phone lines are currently closed…”

Jokers

Those cheeky b*5t*rds at Creation really really need to pay out for this. They can try to wriggle on other things but not failure to honour promises during the notice period. For other things you should also claim from Creation, I think you’d be wise to allege unfair contract terms as well.

Here are the things anyone who lost these should be claiming because Creation (a) failed to honour their promises and (b) is attempting to exploit Unfair Contract Terms so as not to honour promises this business made to you as a consumer.

Claim Item:
(1) during notice period, not crediting points and not giving any free night already owed, or earned in that period+anniversary in that period 100pts

(2) during notice period, not crediting any night for which the full spend amount was completed during notice period or earlier, regardless of the anniversary 65pts

(3) for pro rata value to you of partially accrued free night 35 pts,

(4) a fair calculation of return of a fair amount of the advance-paid annual fee taken by Creation. As after taking the advance payment for 1 year’s card use, Creation unilaterally withdrew the use of the card prematurely without cause or guilt of cardholder (which they’d have had to prove in the case of you as an individual cardholder).
Creation had the opportunity to state fault on the part of the individual cardholder (you) and prove it. But they chose not to, by hiding behind “business reason”. Therefore premature withdrawal of card usage and nonpayment of benefits earned ranges from breach of contract to exploitation of Unfair Contract Terms depending on each person’s case. 70-75pts

The points I give for each item to be claimed above is my personal estimate of justification minus winnability (MCOL) of each item to claim. I am not an expert.

Basically if you claim one might as well claim all if they apply to your case. Nothing to lose.

IMV it keeps it much cleaner to be very clear the annual fee only covers making the card available for your use. Plenty of cards are chargeable so this is quite normal. Specifically the annual card fee does not cover benefits. Those are earned pro rata by you spending (points) and by you meeting a spend target by diverting spend to Creation. Not the annual fee. Therefore nonpayment of benefits and loss of partially accrued free night need to be paid to you regardless of any full or partial return of the annual fee.

If anyone is MCOLing soon there is one elephant in the room to be aware Creation will bring. It should be able to be countered if you present your argument well, if you are going for this in the next month happy to share if anyone PM’s me via @Rhys but I am not going to do Creation’s work for them because if they’ve got any brains they’ll be reading this thread.

[wideboys182]

marks7389 wrote:

wideboys182 wrote:

Wow after reading the letter a few more times.. not sure how FOS will not have a case against Creation.

So we have a credit agreement with Creation which in turn gives us IHG points. They are closing our agreement with them which in turns has no impact on the IHG terms. Because it’s not IHG who didn’t credit my account with my missing points it’s Creation not communicating to them to add my points so it’s a Creation issue which leds me to believe that though you have 2 months notice in the back end they change the account status. I was told I could use my card up to Dec and ensure balance is paid off by 3 Dec. Which it was so my complaint is going to the FOS as I am financially out of pocket for the points not rewarded for when my account was till active. My account closed 3 Dec so have 2-3 months of uncredited points missing.

What did they say about clause 6 in your decision letter? No mention in mine, though they omitted to respond at all about the missing points and only confirmed afterwards by email that they weren’t going to credit them when I pushed it.

What clause 6 actually says:

“Points accrued and rewards issued are subject to the terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club”. Fair enough but the points and rewards actually need to be issued for that statement to apply.

“Please see http://www.ihgrewardsclub.com for full terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club, including all up-to-date redemption values”. Again, fine. If the IHG Rewards scheme is devalued or terminated, or IHG closes a member account etc. no comeback on Creation.

“Terms and conditions of the IHG Rewards Club may be modified without notice to cardholders, and services and benefits may be added or removed at any time”. Again, fair enough. No obligation on Creation to inform cardholders of changes to the IHG terms that may impact their use of points and rewards earned through the card once they’ve been issued.

The only way I can see his could possibly have any relevance is if IHG had taken their own decision to refuse to credit points earned via Creation, under their (modified or otherwise) terms and conditions. And they would have had to have done that only for several hundred members who happen to be the same ones for which Creation has made a business decision to close accounts, whilst at the same time allowing them to continue to earn points by other means and redeem them.

That seems highly unlikely, and there’s absolutely no suggestion that is the case. If by same bizarre turn of events it were the case Creation would be telling us so we go and bother IHG instead….

marks7389

My letter states that “Points ceased being transferred to IHG after notification of the account closure was issued.”

So this is clear they notify IHG my account is closed before the 3 Dec therefore breaching the 2 month notice period. As I had no notice that point earned during those 2 months are not rewarded.

So I will be leaning on the “pay an award for financial loss” on my letter given the missing points equals to at least a free night in to end hotel.

What’s even worse the letter goes on to say “… to tal this through, please call me on …” then a footnote to state “Please call between 9am and 5pm Monday to Friday…our complaints phone lines are currently closed…”

Jokers

[JDB]

@LadyLondon

Without commenting either way on your earlier long post there is one issue you mention (as copied below in italics, my emphasis) and have raised before that is simply incorrect and risks compromising any good arguments people have.

(4) a fair calculation of return of a fair amount of the advance-paid annual fee taken by Creation. As after taking the advance payment for 1 year’s card use, Creation unilaterally withdrew the use of the card prematurely without cause or guilt of cardholder (which they’d have had to prove in the case of you as an individual cardholder).
Creation had the opportunity to state fault on the part of the individual cardholder (you) and prove it. But they chose not to, by hiding behind “business reason”. Therefore premature withdrawal of card usage and nonpayment of benefits earned ranges from breach of contract to exploitation of Unfair Contract Terms depending on each person’s case. 70-75pts

It is simply incorrect to say that there is any onus on Creation to find ’cause or guilt’ or ‘prove’ anything to justify closing your account. Parliament has decided, in CCA 1974 s98A (1) – (3) that either party can cancel the contract at any time, the customer without notice and the firm on two month’s notice. There is no requirement for either party to give any reasons or justify anything. You cannot succeed in a claim of unfairness because Creation didn’t tell you why they closed the account or failed to prove you had done anything wrong. The ‘unilateral’ or ‘premature’ withdrawal of use of the card is a difficult argument when the law provides for exactly that to happen. If people use bad or invalid arguments in any case, the other side will focus on that to try and weaken your case.

[JerrySignfield]

I still find it hard to believe that some people can be classify these actions as ‘fair’, for example if a credit card charged an annual fee with the promise of a valuable benefit say £500 on condition of xxxx spend, then after 1 month and the spend target completed, the issuer can cancel the contract with 2 months notice and keep the annual fee as well as not issue the £500 benefit.

I think any reasonable person would see this as unfair, if companies are allowed to get away with this I think that every scammer would be issuing credit cards with outrageous incentives.

This would be popular until a point where the law decides that actions like these are not acceptable.

[JDB]

JerrySignfield wrote:

I still find it hard to believe that some people can be classify these actions as ‘fair’, for example if a credit card charged an annual fee with the promise of a valuable benefit say £500 on condition of xxxx spend, then after 1 month and the spend target completed, the issuer can cancel the contract with 2 months notice and keep the annual fee as well as not issue the £500 benefit.

I think any reasonable person would see this as unfair, if companies are allowed to get away with this I think that every scammer would be issuing credit cards with outrageous incentives.

This would be popular until a point where the law decides that actions like these are not acceptable.

The non-refundable annual fee is the same at say HSBC, Virgin, Tesco etc. although it does seem to be fairly common practice to offer a pro-rata refund as a gesture of goodwill if you cancel at the very start, although some here previously reported Virgin won’t. Those cards that have an ‘anniversary’ benefit (eg Tesco Premium, HSBC WE in Y1, Amex PRG, Creation etc.) are quite clear that the anniversary is the trigger (but only if spend reached) vs say BAPP or Virgin 241 vouchers where it is only the spend that matters. In both cases that difference is very clearly set out upfront, as is the statutory right of cancellation by either party. A lot of ‘unfairness’ claims relate to hidden terms or ambiguity /lack of clarity, none of which appear to apply here in respect of any voucher due after December. Within the notice period may be different.

[hugog]

Thinking about doing the money claim online route – anyone tried this?

[JDB]

hugog wrote:

Thinking about doing the money claim online route – anyone tried this?

If you do, check the MCOL guidance – particularly the section on Pre-Action Conduct (page 3?) and the link to the Civil Procedure Rules which specify that where available, as in this case, there are remedies such as Ombudsmen these should be used first; the Court is supposed to be a last resort. This isn’t set in stone, but you would need to give a very good reason why you aren’t using the FOS so as to avoid the risk of costs or having your claim struck out or deferred. If you do decide to do MCOL, you first need to send a Letter before Claim. Send by recorded snail mail and email and give them 14 days to reply.

The other thing that anyone planning MCOL (rather than FOS) should bear in mind is that (as stated in the guidance) you do need to understand the strict legal basis for your claim and if it gets to an oral hearing (which it may well not) you need to be able to think on your feet to answer questions the judge will ask you. The big advantage of MCOL is that it will almost certainly elicit a response from the other side in a specific time frame and you will have the opportunity to address that response. With FOS, you will not get to see their arguments except in summary form at the preliminary decision stage.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Blindman67]

JDB wrote:

hugog wrote:

Thinking about doing the money claim online route – anyone tried this?

If you do, check the MCOL guidance – particularly the section on Pre-Action Conduct (page 3?) and the link to the Civil Procedure Rules which specify that where available, as in this case, there are remedies such as Ombudsmen these should be used first; the Court is supposed to be a last resort. This isn’t set in stone, but you would need to give a very good reason why you aren’t using the FOS so as to avoid the risk of costs or having your claim struck out or deferred. If you do decide to do MCOL, you do first need to sent a Letter before Claim. Send by recorded snail mail and email and give them 14 days to reply.

The other thing that anyone planning MCOL (rather than FOS) should bear in mind is that (as stated in the guidance) you do need to understand the strict legal basis for your claim and if it gets to an oral hearing (which it may well not) you need to be able to think on your feet to answer questions the judge will ask you. The big advantage of MCOL is that it will almost certainly elicit a response from the other side in a specific time frame and you will have the opportunity to address that response. With FOS, you will not get to see their arguments except in summary form at the preliminary decision stage.

STOP SCAREMONGERING.

Having read this whole thread I see you are 100% working for Creation and trying to stop genuine aggrieved customers-who did not take the pi$$ with creation -their rights to a fair judgement.

MCOL is a relatively painless and easy process.

PS:- Its LETTER BEFORE ACTION LBA
Look at MSE for examples.
https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Lady London]

JDB wrote:

@LadyLondon

Without commenting either way on your earlier long post there is one issue you mention (as copied below in italics, my emphasis) and have raised before that is simply incorrect and risks compromising any good arguments people have.

(4) a fair calculation of return of a fair amount of the advance-paid annual fee taken by Creation. As after taking the advance payment for 1 year’s card use, Creation unilaterally withdrew the use of the card prematurely without cause or guilt of cardholder (which they’d have had to prove in the case of you as an individual cardholder).
Creation had the opportunity to state fault on the part of the individual cardholder (you) and prove it. But they chose not to, by hiding behind “business reason”. Therefore premature withdrawal of card usage and nonpayment of benefits earned ranges from breach of contract to exploitation of Unfair Contract Terms depending on each person’s case. 70-75pts

It is simply incorrect to say that there is any onus on Creation to find ’cause or guilt’ or ‘prove’ anything to justify closing your account. Parliament has decided, in CCA 1974 s98A (1) – (3) that either party can cancel the contract at any time, the customer without notice and the firm on two month’s notice. There is no requirement for either party to give any reasons or justify anything. You cannot succeed in a claim of unfairness because Creation didn’t tell you why they closed the account or failed to prove you had done anything wrong. The ‘unilateral’ or ‘premature’ withdrawal of use of the card is a difficult argument when the law provides for exactly that to happen. If people use bad or invalid arguments in any case, the other side will focus on that to try and weaken your case.

Yes they should be able to close it unilaterally with the required notice @JDB. But what’s unfair is that they should be able to do it without paying out all benefits that were earned. There is too much temptation here for unscrupulous businesses who’ve decided they’ve made mistakes or not making enough profit or got into exposure they now wish to unwind, to early-terminate cardholders who’ve fulfilled their part of the bargain, as a way of avoiding paying out what customers have earned in accordance with the core promotions of the card. This is unfair contract terms.

So yes they can terminate early, but they must continue to provide full benefits through to the end of any notice period. And it’s unfair if contract terms allow asymmetric benefit – much more to the business than the consumer – if premature termination is able to be used by the business to avoid paying out benefits earned. Whatever could cause this, the contract needs to spell out the potential loss to the consumer and so should a note on any relevant publicity.

My mention of this being unfair if there waa no fault of the cardholder, is only to say that fault of the cardholder would be the only reason I could imagine early unilateral termination letting the card provider out of havibg to pay the cardholder all his earned benefits in full, being potentially fair. But in this case the card provider should have to state the cardholder is at fault and if they state it they should have to prove jt as well. Otherwise it’s just not fair and too much to the advantage of the card provider.

[Blindman67]

I see to have LL problem.

Post are not posting

JDB is SCAREMONGERING.

[Blindman67]

uSE mcol

https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/reclaim/small-claims-court/

[Lady London]

Blindman67 wrote:

I see to have LL problem.

Post are not posting

JDB is SCAREMONGERING.

@JDB is making a very good point. I have said it more than once and not explaining it very well.

I have just addded a post clarifying – thanks JDB.

In summary no one is saying the card provider can’t unilaterally terminate prematurely. But it’s too much jeopardy if the card provider is able to avoid paying out benefits the cardholder has earned, by way of choosing to terminate prematurely.

Unfair contract terms, possibly some unfairness statute has not prevented, but if this could happen then it should be stated in the contract very clearly to the consumer, and any publicity about the benefits needs to have a note drawing the attention of the consumer to this being able to happen.

Is this enticement of the consumer by misrepresentation?

[JDB]

Blindman67 wrote:

I see to have LL problem.

Post are not posting

JDB is SCAREMONGERING.

Not sure why telling people to read the guidance constitutes ‘scaremongering’. There are very important differences and clear risks/consequences between FOS and MCOL and it seems beyond foolish not to bother reading that MCOL/FOS guidance and be aware of the issues when deciding how to proceed.