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  • Rui N. 855 posts

    So just had an interesting phone call from FOS person who was dealing with my complaint.

    They found in my favour a couple of weeks ago and submitted their decision to creation, they’ve not heard back from creation, surprisingly.

    The call this morning wasn’t so much about my account being closed, but more about curve.

    I told them right from the start I used the black card with curve linked, but done zero Ms with it and provided all my statements to show it was for quality of life usage, carrying one card etc, and they had no issue with this.

    They asked today, in depth, and quite insistently, where I discovered about curve, time first started to use curve, why did I start to use curve, and things like was it promoted to me and how, also how much did I pay for it and why I was on metal vs free.

    Not sure if anyone else has had a call like this from them, but seems to be dragging on.

    What was the relevance of mentioning Curve in your complaint to the FOS?
    And was your complaint actually about the acount being closed? Very surprised that they ruled in your favour then.

    Jon 261 posts

    Thanks @JDB. It will certainly be interesting to see what they come up with, aside from anything else. My Additional Particulars of Claim runs to 50 pages, albeit most of that is appendices – but there’s a lot in there for them to address, and many points they’ll need to rebut. We shall see… 😉

    @Rui Absolutely. There’s also Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act which provides that in case of any ambiguity, the meaning most favourable to the consumer must apply.

    NorthernLass 8,224 posts

    So just had an interesting phone call from FOS person who was dealing with my complaint.

    They found in my favour a couple of weeks ago and submitted their decision to creation, they’ve not heard back from creation, surprisingly.

    The call this morning wasn’t so much about my account being closed, but more about curve.

    I told them right from the start I used the black card with curve linked, but done zero Ms with it and provided all my statements to show it was for quality of life usage, carrying one card etc, and they had no issue with this.

    They asked today, in depth, and quite insistently, where I discovered about curve, time first started to use curve, why did I start to use curve, and things like was it promoted to me and how, also how much did I pay for it and why I was on metal vs free.

    Not sure if anyone else has had a call like this from them, but seems to be dragging on.

    I can’t see any reason for the FOS to be asking about Curve which will bode well for anyone here. I haven’t mentioned it and if they ask me, I will tell then that as far as I’m concerned, unless Creation have specifically mentioned it, then it’s irrelevant to the proceedings. I’m really surprised that anyone has mentioned it, tbh, now we know exactly how institutions have started reacting to it!

    • This reply was modified 54 years, 5 months ago by .
    JDB 4,627 posts

    Thanks @JDB. It will certainly be interesting to see what they come up with, aside from anything else. My Additional Particulars of Claim runs to 50 pages, albeit most of that is appendices – but there’s a lot in there for them to address, and many points they’ll need to rebut. We shall see… 😉

    @Rui Absolutely. There’s also Section 69 of the Consumer Rights Act which provides that in case of any ambiguity, the meaning most favourable to the consumer must apply.

    I hope somewhere you have provided a concise case summary as these District Judges are under huge pressure and they won’t read 50 pages as these small claims track cases are supposed to be very quick and simple. Creation will respond with something significantly briefer and won’t address or rebut all your points but mainly focus on their own case.

    Lady London 2,139 posts

    I think FOS asking a submitter in great detail about Curve when it’s not part of the complaint and the person has done little or no curve and not MS means 1 or 2 of the followng

    – Creation could be claiming use of Curve is abuse. If so this could be something that could still mean they could rely on something outside of their own t’s and c’s if necessary, to cancel the card. So a statute or regulation in the finance area, perhaps.

    Their error might be if so far(as they’ve only got a lawyer involved in this very recently by the – finally professional – look of their letters posted on this thread today), they are claiming any use of Curve is abuse. Whether by their own ts and cs, or something external to their card agreement. This wouldn’t work as some users can ptove their use was not abuse. It also wouldn’t work as they haven’t cancelled the card of everyone that used Curve.

    2. FOS (or even FCA) may well have other investigations, deliberations or complaints going on with Curve. Whether correct behaviour or not when dealing with someone’s complaint, either the FOS or perhaps for their own learning, the FOS handler, may have been seeking information that would better inform them, for their understanding of those other goings-on with Curve.

    An HfP reader who submits a complaint to FOS is likely to be more aware, knowledgeable and articulate than many who submit complaints to them. So the FOS benefits both by discussing.

    Jon 261 posts

    I hope somewhere you have provided a concise case summary as these District Judges are under huge pressure and they won’t read 50 pages as these small claims track cases are supposed to be very quick and simple. Creation will respond with something significantly briefer and won’t address or rebut all your points but mainly focus on their own case.

    I did 😉 There’s a one-page summary, then the detailed arguments take about 10 pages (comprising numbered bullets, and divided into headed sections, so not a solid mass of prose 😉 The rest is just appendices of evidence, correspondence etc, referenced from the arguments.

    Rui N. 855 posts

    – Creation could be claiming use of Curve is abuse. If so this could be something that could still mean they could rely on something outside of their own t’s and c’s if necessary, to cancel the card. So a statute or regulation in the finance area, perhaps.

    Creation doesn’t need any justification to close a card. They did not claim any abuse as they gave the statutory 60 days of warning.

    Lady London 2,139 posts

    – Creation could be claiming use of Curve is abuse. If so this could be something that could still mean they could rely on something outside of their own t’s and c’s if necessary, to cancel the card. So a statute or regulation in the finance area, perhaps.

    Creation doesn’t need any justification to close a card. They did not claim any abuse as they gave the statutory 60 days of warning.

    I’m thinking they may be claiming this in their defence sent to FOS, or in other cases of a complaint to FOS.

    As JDB points out, the complainant doesn’t get to see the defence Creation has provided to FOS.

    Also if they are claiming Curve=abuse, it might let them get away with doing other things that are not normally permitted either by their ts and cs or generally. Such as not pay out points earned several months ago.

    PS for some people Creation didn’t give 60 days notice.

    memesweeper 1,296 posts

    it is clearly referring to IHG adding or removing Rewards Club services and benefits

    Not only that, but if anything was unclear to anyone about what Section 6 refers to, Section 6 includes a link to the IHG Rewards website.

    The words in Section 6 are there to protect Creation from changes that IHG might make that customers don’t like. It can’t be construed as meaning anything else.

    tw33ty 204 posts

    Rui – the first time I spoke with FOS some time ago, they asked about useage etc of the card by myself, so I told them, I had zero to hide, so no point in not telling them something, I showed my statements etc

    The person who was dealing with my case, maybe by accident, mentioned they were really busy with similar cases, and I said something along the lines of, o you mean ms through ns and I. Which they then stopped saying anything else.

    In any further email or phone call, curve was not mentioned, nor was it mentioned in their final outcome.

    The call this morning is puzzling because it seemed more about how and why I used curve and where I’d Seen it promoted etc, rather than the fact it was being used at all.

    stevenhp1987 339 posts

    Rui – the first time I spoke with FOS some time ago, they asked about useage etc of the card by myself, so I told them, I had zero to hide, so no point in not telling them something, I showed my statements etc

    The person who was dealing with my case, maybe by accident, mentioned they were really busy with similar cases, and I said something along the lines of, o you mean ms through ns and I. Which they then stopped saying anything else.

    In any further email or phone call, curve was not mentioned, nor was it mentioned in their final outcome.

    The call this morning is puzzling because it seemed more about how and why I used curve and where I’d Seen it promoted etc, rather than the fact it was being used at all.

    Out of interest, when FOS upheld your complaint what did they request Creation do?

    Compensation? Pay for the free night voucher etc?

    jj 533 posts

    it is clearly referring to IHG adding or removing Rewards Club services and benefits

    Not only that, but if anything was unclear to anyone about what Section 6 refers to, Section 6 includes a link to the IHG Rewards website.

    The words in Section 6 are there to protect Creation from changes that IHG might make that customers don’t like. It can’t be construed as meaning anything else.


    @memesweeper
    you are, of course, completely correct – but that’s not Creation is saying in its final response letters.

    So my earlier comment regarding contract variations was about defence in depth. The argument is that Creation is mistaken when it says that it may vary its terms unilaterally. But, even if Creation’s reading is correct, the resultant interpretation would breach the FCA’s guidance and must therefore be struck out.

    jj 533 posts

    The call this morning is puzzling because it seemed more about how and why I used curve and where I’d Seen it promoted etc, rather than the fact it was being used at all.

    The FCA requires financial products to be designed to meet the needs of clearly defined groups of consumers, and firms are required to monitor product usage to ensure abuse isn’t taking place.

    If Creation is claiming that Curve facilitates the abuse of credit cards, it will be important for FOS to know whether consumers were being encouraged in that behaviour by a regulated firm – that information will be a critical part of the FOS assessment of fairness. I have a screenshot of an old Curve promotion that is very interesting in that context. It says:

    – Relax about tax: Make HMRC payments using your credit card
    – Spread the cost: Pay off a credit card bill with another credit card
    – Earn extra rewards: Get more juicy credit card rewards along the way

    Any consumer reading that promotion will have been led to believe that the entire purpose of curve was to manufacture spend.

    Rui N. 855 posts

    That is still shown on the Curve website: https://www.curve.com/en-gb/features/curve-fronted/

    jj 533 posts

    That is still shown on the Curve website: https://www.curve.com/en-gb/features/curve-fronted/

    thanks – my Google skills failed me and I couldn’t find it today, but, givem the FOS line of enquiry, it’s helpful to have a copy that predates the behaviour that Creation now seems to find objectionable.

    TGLoyalty 642 posts

    The person who was dealing with my case, maybe by accident, mentioned they were really busy with similar cases, and I said something along the lines of, o you mean ms through ns and I. Which they then stopped saying anything else.

    A rather unnecessary comment to make in itself then you wonder why you’ve had a call asking about your usage.

    You never used your curve for anything but a purchase of goods and services you could have used the credit card for directly I assume.

    Rui N. 855 posts

    Put it another way, never used Curve for anything that this FCA-approved entity did not allow me to use it for.

    tw33ty 204 posts

    Tg, maybe I wasn’t clear, I’m not fussed about the call, as I said, I have nothing to hide. I know what others were up to, probably hence the off the cuff comment in the call, and hence providing them with all my statements.

    Why was I not using the card directly? Creation didn’t work with Apple Pay and why carry all those cards at once when not needed.

    I was nearly pointing out new information that clearly no one else has experienced this far, as I seem to be a lot further down process than others are, and to let others know, if what I write is of no use or interest to you, just carry on scrolling down, I simply could have kept quiet and told no one in advance.

    Steven – they found in my favour after zero communication from creation, and they request creation give me a card refund, points accrued until dec 10th and then financial compensation, which is a figure based on loss of night and inconvenience suffered due to it all.

    jj 533 posts

    @tw33ty, I’ve learned three very interesting things from your experience: you won (fully expected but good to hear); FOS has a large number of similar cases (that wasn’t obvious, as many people don’t bother to complain); and FOS is investigating Curve usage in the context of Creation (eminently guessable, but far from certain).

    You say that you were awarded compensation for the free night. When did your renewal fall? Did Creation fail to award a free night during the notice period, or was the voucher due on some other date?

    JDB 4,627 posts

    @tw33ty the decision you say was made a couple of weeks ago is presumably just a preliminary one? Creation will almost certainly disagree with the decision so that it will go to an Ombudsman to make a final decision. Make sure you add any additional/new points if Creation does disagree as, if you look at past decisions in relation to Creation on the FOS website, they have some success in changing decisions.

    NorthernLass 8,224 posts

    @tw33y – how much did you value the free night at?

    Also, how long has it been since you initially submitted your complaint?

    • This reply was modified 54 years, 5 months ago by .
    Grant 116 posts

    …points accrued until dec 10th

    Is this a typo? I thought cards stopped working on 3rd December.

    Harrier25 887 posts

    Guys, let me know when you win and then I’ll contact Creation for my frozen 18,726 IHG points and free night voucher. Can’t be arsed to play around with FOS, so thanks everyone in advance for all your hard work. I hold you all in high regard. 👍

    NorthernLass 8,224 posts

    @Harrier, aren’t you in danger of missing the 6 month cut off?

    JDB 4,627 posts

    @Harrier, aren’t you in danger of missing the 6 month cut off?

    You have six years to complain to Creation! The six months to take to the FOS only kicks in once you have a final decision from Creation.

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