Downgrade J to Y (no PE)

[yonasl]

Hello, Just a random question regarding downgrades. We are all aware of the 75% refund right. But is a downgrade J to Y treated the same if PE was skipped? (is there such a thing as a “double” downgrade basically)

[JDB]

@yonasi – no, the reimbursement % is the same, however classes you are downgraded. You may have seen also on various threads recently that most airlines fight this quite hard.

[yonasl]

Thanks @JDB

There is a high incentive to sell discounted business class tickets and then downgrade as more expensive ones are sold closer to the flight date. No protection really for that (better to be in Y and be kicked out of the place as £600 is much more than many Y fares)

[meta]

Straight to LBA and MCOL with this one immediately after the flight. I have recently had two instances and I only give the airlines 8 days to comply in my LBA. Article 10 stipulates that it should be paid within seven days. So I give them 1 extra day for my LBA to arrive.

[JDB]

meta wrote:

Straight to LBA and MCOL with this one immediately after the flight. I have recently had two instances and I only give the airlines 8 days to comply in my LBA. Article 10 stipulates that it should be paid within seven days. So I give them 1 extra day for my LBA to arrive.

That sounds a good approach @meta. However, I would say that if you were arguing for the airline you could make a very strong case not to pay in many circumstances and many have worked this out, so fight cases.

[cabal of rabid baboons]

I’m extremely grateful that @Meta has previously shared his approach, having previously gone down the online claim form approach for UK261 with BA and waited 5 months for payment on the next occasion it was a brief half page (@JBD) LBA to the legal department and the money was in my bank in nine days.

[Lady London]

Yes,straight to Legal seems best as @meta says.

Luckily the legislation concerned does state the airline must pay the amounts due, in 7 days. So putting in your claim immediately to the part of BA that BA has actually made competent, ie the Legal Department, giving them exactly 7 days to pay, reduces room for shilly shallying and exhausting you.

I think snail mail also still has ‘the postal rule’ advantage in that if sent by registered post an item/letter is deemed to be received the day after it’s sent. Fits with @meta’s 8 days.

It’s clear from accounts everywhere over time here and elsewhere, that for compensation, duty of care reimbursement and downgrade reimbursement, contacting Customer dis-Services or filling out website contact forms is a complete waste of time and contacting Legal will actually get BA dealing with it.

[Blair Waldorf Salad]

Lady London wrote:

Yes,straight to Legal seems best as @meta says.

Luckily the legislation concerned does state the airline must pay the amounts due, in 7 days. So putting in your claim immediately to the part of BA that BA has actually made competent, ie the Legal Department, giving them exactly 7 days to pay, reduces room for shilly shallying and exhausting you.

I think snail mail also still has ‘the postal rule’ advantage in that if sent by registered post an item/letter is deemed to be received the day after it’s sent. Fits with @meta’s 8 days.

It’s clear from accounts everywhere over time here and elsewhere, that for compensation, duty of care reimbursement and downgrade reimbursement, contacting Customer dis-Services or filling out website contact forms is a complete waste of time and contacting Legal will actually get BA dealing with it.

I sent a LBA by recorded delivery to BA Legal re non-provision of a FTV; got dealt with 2 months later by BA Customer Service as “sorry you weren’t happy with your recent flight/your bags were delayed. We’ve taken your feedback on board.”

Sent another LBA again by recorded delivery. Got answered by…BA Customer Service 6 months later with “Sorry we couldn’t provide you with a FTV but you would not be eligible for one because you are ineligible.” They really don’t help their own case with that sort of intellectual rigour.

[JDB]

@Blair Waldorf Salad – you have spotted that the advice some here still give to go straight to legal is now very dated. So many people have followed this that legal simply passes anything that hasn’t previously been considered by Customer Relations on to them; they won’t consider matters as the first point of contact and nor should they.

[John]

Lady London wrote:

I think snail mail also still has ‘the postal rule’ advantage in that if sent by registered post an item/letter is deemed to be received the day after it’s sent. Fits with @meta’s 8 days.

There isn’t any “registered post” in the UK. There is “Signed For” which only provides proof of delivery (and after a reasonable amount of time from posting, if proof of posting was obtained, it could be assumed an item was not delivered) and “Special Delivery” which shows which mail centres the item has passed through.

I believe the relevant legislation is in the Interpretation Act 1978:

7 References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

which I take to mean that delivery is assumed without proof, unless one somehow proves non-delivery.

I don’t think “ordinary course of post” is defined anywhere else, and so I believe precedent says that it is reasonable to assume something was delivered 2 days after proof of posting (if there is no proof of delivery).

However with RM strikes and service reductions it does not seem reasonable to me any longer, plus the threat of ending daily letter delivery (in practice daily deliveries ended for me 18 months ago, as I expect to receive 5-10 items of mail per week, and nowadays they tend to be delivered in bunches every 2-3 days).

[meta]

JDB wrote:

@Blair Waldorf Salad – you have spotted that the advice some here still give to go straight to legal is now very dated. So many people have followed this that legal simply passes anything that hasn’t previously been considered by Customer Relations on to them; they won’t consider matters as the first point of contact and nor should they.

Maybe it’s just me and I am on some sort of list that BA Legal seem to be responding quickly and paying up. Or maybe it’s just the wording of the LBAs I sent. I have seen waffle even from people who make a living out of EC261 claims.

Iberia on the other hand is another matter!

[Blair Waldorf Salad]

JDB wrote:

@Blair Waldorf Salad – you have spotted that the advice some here still give to go straight to legal is now very dated. So many people have followed this that legal simply passes anything that hasn’t previously been considered by Customer Relations on to them; they won’t consider matters as the first point of contact and nor should they.

To be fair, my LBA to Legal was on the back of 6 months of nonsensical engagement with Customer Services. I do agree with you though, I think they have got savvy to this route in. Having said that, it won’t help them in front of a judge if they failed to engage with valid issues compared to baseless complaints.

[baec_newbie]

John wrote:

Lady London wrote:

I think snail mail also still has ‘the postal rule’ advantage in that if sent by registered post an item/letter is deemed to be received the day after it’s sent. Fits with @meta’s 8 days.

There isn’t any “registered post” in the UK. There is “Signed For” which only provides proof of delivery (and after a reasonable amount of time from posting, if proof of posting was obtained, it could be assumed an item was not delivered) and “Special Delivery” which shows which mail centres the item has passed through.

I believe the relevant legislation is in the Interpretation Act 1978:

7 References to service by post.
Where an Act authorises or requires any document to be served by post (whether the expression “serve” or the expression “give” or “send” or any other expression is used) then, unless the contrary intention appears, the service is deemed to be effected by properly addressing, pre-paying and posting a letter containing the document and, unless the contrary is proved, to have been effected at the time at which the letter would be delivered in the ordinary course of post.

which I take to mean that delivery is assumed without proof, unless one somehow proves non-delivery.

I don’t think “ordinary course of post” is defined anywhere else, and so I believe precedent says that it is reasonable to assume something was delivered 2 days after proof of posting (if there is no proof of delivery).

However with RM strikes and service reductions it does not seem reasonable to me any longer, plus the threat of ending daily letter delivery (in practice daily deliveries ended for me 18 months ago, as I expect to receive 5-10 items of mail per week, and nowadays they tend to be delivered in bunches every 2-3 days).

With tracked services such as Signed For, my understanding is that – quite sensibly – service isn’t deemed to have taken place until there is positive evidence of the item’s delivery.

This is why there is usually absolutely no point sending legal correspondence Signed For. It doesn’t somehow make it more scary for the recipient. Instead, send the letter through good old fashioned first class post, get Proof of Postage at a Post Office store or outlet, and then 2 working days later it’s deemed served. Saves money and guarantees that there can be no postal shenanigans getting in the way of your deemed service.

[Omegaman]

If you get downgraded do you still get the original tier points or are they downgraded as well?

[JDB]

Omegaman wrote:

If you get downgraded do you still get the original tier points or are they downgraded as well?

BA will usually only give the originally booked tier points (via an ORC claim) for ‘on the day’ downgrades or reroutings.

[JDB]

@baec_newbie it’s a mistake to be so black and white about how to send correspondence. Signed For has always been pointless as it isn’t tracked and Royal Mail frequently fails to obtain a signature. If you want to be sure something has been delivered, you need to send it by Special Delivery or a good document courier all of which are expensive.

While you should ultimately be able to rely upon the s7 of the Interpretation Act 1978 as cited above, it can cause no end of problems dealing with slippery counterparties (claimants and defendants) and they use the postal difficulties of the past 18 months to their full extent. You need to know your enemy.

I have mentioned how bad Iberia is in another thread – I issued a claim and, as I had sought their permission to communicate/serve by email, but hadn’t received a response, posted the Particulars by Special Delivery the same day. They then apply to have the case dismissed on the grounds no PoC had been served. Having the proof of posting and delivery, plus in fact I had also emailed the CEO’s office with an acknowledgement caused them to withdraw that case and the threat of costs rather rapidly. That wouldn’t have happened if I had relied solely on the IA.

They have since, equally incorrectly, thrown up various other other procedural matters to try and kill the case rather than addressing the facts, something I find very reassuring.

[meta]

@JDB Iberia tried the exactly the same thing with me! The judge told them it’s nonsense. It seems to be their spiel.

[JDB]

meta wrote:

@JDB Iberia tried the exactly the same thing with me! The judge told them it’s nonsense. It seems to be their spiel.

Thank you for the reassurance @meta – I don’t understand their strategy with two completely misconceived interim applications which will have cost far more than I’m claiming which is only c.£700 and to date, I think they have spent £2,500 minimum and we don’t even have a final hearing date yet.

The extensive Creation thread will be nothing compared to the future Iberia post voucher use one and people trying to claim for downgrades, cancellations, delays etc.

Anyway, I have another Iberia claim in the pipeline, so given this experience I have gone straight to the minister who I’m very pleased is much more helpful than Iberia or AESA.