Electric company car – Tesla – advice

[JDB]

@LadyLondon – I don’t think there’s really a case for any meaningful tariffs in order to protect or allow the European manufacturers to catch up because some never will, it’s only deferring the evil day and keeping the Chinese out is like King Canute keeping the waves at bay. While @TGLoyalty suggests it’s like European car firms going to China, but it’s more like when Japanese cars were introduced to Europe – it took a while and there was similar xenophobia as highlighted above, but the price and quality soon persuaded people.

The current market is distorted by the very generous subsidies offered to company EV car buyers but and ordinary private customer is being put off buying an EV by the cost and poor choice. An old European chassis with a battery and the odd gimmick at a huge price? No thanks! I and many others will wait until the right product is there. Some early private EV adopters are switching back to petrol.

It will be terrible for workers in lumbering car giants like VW unless their bosses wake up very fast and produce the product customers want at an affordable price. Remember when Nokia was the market leader in mobiles, Schweppes had the tonic and Gordon’s was a premier gin. The market spoke.

Re Polestar – I mentioned a while ago about them (and their electric Volvo cousins) being rubbish and a number of readers leapt to the firm’s defence.

I wouldn’t read a thing into today’s low Chinese car sales numbers; they have to start somewhere and to suggest they won’t make it in Europe is real head in the sand stuff.

[redlilly]

Thank you both for insight…

We don’t do a lot of miles/big drives. I’ll do the maths on the company car vs buying second hand. I am not in to buying new brand new cars.

Don’t really know what type of car we were going to go for, but that was going to be the next step. We just want something that looks smart and is reliable. Either estate or SUV style.

[strickers]

I’ll be in a similar position in the New Year, the lease on my Skoda expires in March. I then have several options, one of which is salary sacrifice for a brand new EV. Upsides are insurance and maintenance include, downside is I will lose around £150 in mileage claims from my employer as I drop from 45p a mile to 8p. Having crunched the numbers I know I can charge the car fully at 6.7p a kWh for about 95% of my journeys. The overall calculation is coming down on a second hand Tesla Model 3 long range, mostly for the charging network but that calculation has changed now that Tesla have opened up the network to other EVs.

I’ve test driven quite a few and have to say I was amazed by the quality of the BYD Dolphin, I’d hope to test drive a Seal but that option wasn’t available where I went. I’m put off with Chinese EVs, not for the quality which seems excellent but having perused several forums there seems to be some quite significant issues with spare parts. If you want to see how much the German manufacturers are struggling go to one of the lease comparison sites and see how much you can lease a VM ID7 for?

[Tracey]

Tesla often have 0% finance deals that will work out cheaper than lease prices on salary sacrifice from the likes of Tuskar. Apples and pears, but why lease when you can own outright after the same sort of payments over 3 years.

For chargers, ohme and zappi will allow the chargers to interact with your electricity supplier directly. Allowing time of use tariffs. Only some cars have the necessary interfaces to do this for themselves eg our Tesla can do it, but the Leaf can’t. Also doing it through the charger includes reduced electric on the electricity wasted in the transfer to the car – around 8-10%. Other chargers may be cheaper but lack this functionality.

[BBbetter]

@Tracey, Tusker’s rates seem expensive. It’s disappointing that many employers don’t seem to offer choice of merchants for salary sacrifice, so Tusker can get away with it.

@JDB, interested to hear why you think polestar is poor quality? Have mostly heard positive reviews so far.

Am also curious why no one talks about the likes of ioniq 5 etc. cheap and not a desirable badge?

[strickers]

@Tracey Thanks, already have a Zappi installed for that very reason, ran the cabling while we were decorating.

[Tracey]

strickers wrote:

I’ll be in a similar position in the New Year, the lease on my Skoda expires in March. I then have several options, one of which is salary sacrifice for a brand new EV. Upsides are insurance and maintenance include, downside is I will lose around £150 in mileage claims from my employer as I drop from 45p a mile to 8p. Having crunched the numbers I know I can charge the car fully at 6.7p a kWh for about 95% of my journeys. The overall calculation is coming down on a second hand Tesla Model 3 long range, mostly for the charging network but that calculation has changed now that Tesla have opened up the network to other EVs.

I’ve test driven quite a few and have to say I was amazed by the quality of the BYD Dolphin, I’d hope to test drive a Seal but that option wasn’t available where I went. I’m put off with Chinese EVs, not for the quality which seems excellent but having perused several forums there seems to be some quite significant issues with spare parts. If you want to see how much the German manufacturers are struggling go to one of the lease comparison sites and see how much you can lease a VM ID7 for?

Tesla have only opened a small percentage of their network to other brands, and charge a 10% premium on charging costs.

When our leases run out we will probably buy a second hand Tesla outright rather than lease again. The profit the leasing companies are taking to give you the SS with reduced BIK deals are a joke. The big plus is inclusive car insurance. EV car insurance is expensive.

[strickers]

@Tracey I think EV insurance was expensive, the quotes I’m looking at are only about 7% more than an equivalent ICE car.

[JDB]

BBbetter wrote:

@JDB, interested to hear why you think polestar is poor quality? Have mostly heard positive reviews so far.

Am also curious why no one talks about the likes of ioniq 5 etc. cheap and not a desirable badge?

@BBbetter – I discovered lots of information about Polestars earlier this year while in dispute with Volvo when my wife’s brand new petrol Volvo suffered a complete electrical failure whilst driving, fortunately only on a small country road. Quite scary as it stops absolutely everything functioning, even though it’s a petrol car. They sent an independent diagnostic/roadside assistance company and the chap said he saw this the whole time with Volvo and Polestars. A low loader driver attended later and remarked that he picked up more Volvos and Polestars than other makes. We didn’t really pay much attention but when the dealership said they had never seen this happen as did Volvo UK head office I looked into the matter. As well as endless online reports of the same thing happening with Volvos and Polestars with enough detail to be credible and all those people being told it had never happened before I got reports from the DVSA (by FOI), its equivalent in Australia, Brazil and France and in the USA the NHTSA publishes the reports – have a look. It’s quite scary – there is still to this day a major software issue affecting a number of cars, but they have no idea how to resolve it (and a DSAR explicitly confirmed this in the internal technical manuals and information exchange) so they just reset it and hope the problem goes away, but they don’t know what triggers ago, but sometimes it has come down to poor build quality with poorly connecting wires, water ingress affecting the wiring. Hertz as you know has reported serious reliability issues (on top of unacceptable costs) and is getting rid of its fleet. In respect of Volvo specifically it seems they haven’t properly made the transition from high quality niche cars to mass produced ones without a huge quality sacrifice whilst prices are still remarkably high.

Can’t say re Ioniq but if it’s just a brand image issue, we have two Ssangyongs! Most people must think they are rather infra dig, but they are just such great value. My wife replaced her dead Volvo (now 100% refunded!) with a Ssangyong. The dealer told us of a customer who had borrowed a Rexton to test drive it over the weekend, picked it up on the Friday and messaged him to say how pleased she was, called him on the Saturday to place an order but on the Monday when she brought it back, her husband and neighbours had persuaded her that it just want a brand name they could live with. Pathetic.

[TGLoyalty]

@JDB An old European chassis with a battery and the odd gimmick at a huge price?

No one is putting EV into old platforms (it was done as a stop gap for hybrids) but full EVs are all on EV platforms. Any new car in the last 2/3 years which is flex (ICE, Hybrid and EV) would be on a brand new platform or the EV will be on a separate one from the ICE/Hybrid version (Porsche are taking this approach with Cayenne EV will be on PPE and ICE will continue on MLB-Evo)

VW groups MEB (also shared by Ford) EV only,Porsche PPE EV only, BMW Neue Klasse EV only, JLR MLA brand new for flex plus two EV only platforms in development, Merc have EVA(2) and MMA as a few examples.

Polestar (Volvo) shares parts and platforms from its owner Geely’s family (Zeekr, Lynk & Co, Lotus, Smart, LEVC to name a few). Not saying they completely platform share but they’re leveraging Geely groups tech and powertrains where it makes sense.

Some will make head way for sure but read nothing into current sales? You said they’re the pinnacle of technology and no one can do it better but the consumers in the European markets they’ve entered don’t yet trust their brand even though they’ve been there for a year or two and if they don’t for another 2-3 years then they would have lost some (most?) of their technological advantage fighting on price is a race to the bottom.

The Europeans, Koreans and Japanese aren’t sitting on their hands even if they are thinking twice about the death of ICE.

I think Tesla has more to worry about with high tech higher quality Chinese brands looking to entice its exact target audience – Model S and X are ancient, 3 is coming up to its 8th year while Y is newer it didn’t do anything to make the interiors more appealing. but they do have a strong brand even if their owner is a divisive character.

@BBbetter Hyundai are making some good products like the Ioniq 5/6 but is £50k+ for the one you would want actually want cheap?

@Strickers the ID range is pretty poor for reliability and performance it’s been a failure for VW. Audi is doing better with newer etron releases. Porsche Taycan was initially doing quite well globally but sales have tanked quickly as the tech aged quickly and incentives were cut around the globe, be interesting to see how Macan does.

BYD Seal is nice car but not sure it’s any nicer than the latest Ioniq 5/6?

[Lady London]

JDB wrote:

@LadyLondon – I don’t think there’s really a case for any meaningful tariffs in order to protect or allow the European manufacturers to catch up because some never will, it’s only deferring the evil day and keeping the Chinese out is like King Canute keeping the waves at bay. While @TGLoyalty suggests it’s like European car firms going to China, but it’s more like when Japanese cars were introduced to Europe – it took a while and there was similar xenophobia as highlighted above, but the price and quality soon persuaded people.

The current market is distorted by the very generous subsidies offered to company EV car buyers but and ordinary private customer is being put off buying an EV by the cost and poor choice. An old European chassis with a battery and the odd gimmick at a huge price? No thanks! I and many others will wait until the right product is there. Some early private EV adopters are switching back to petrol.

It will be terrible for workers in lumbering car giants like VW unless their bosses wake up very fast and produce the product customers want at an affordable price. Remember when Nokia was the market leader in mobiles, Schweppes had the tonic and Gordon’s was a premier gin. The market spoke.

Re Polestar – I mentioned a while ago about them (and their electric Volvo cousins) being rubbish and a number of readers leapt to the firm’s defence.

I wouldn’t read a thing into today’s low Chinese car sales numbers; they have to start somewhere and to suggest they won’t make it in Europe is real head in the sand stuff.

This.

This is bang on, JDB. The protection and indirect subsidies the big European car manufacturers have been getting, year after year, is mindboggling. Preferred supplier for government and serious incentives to fleet purchasers, to choose local European product no matter how relatively poor and overpriced.

Tax allowances and concessions for busineses combined with ‘technical’ or ‘ecological’ barriers to EV’s not manufactured in Europe, a massive social leasing program in France subsidised to the tune of 13,000 euros per car sold, into which EU / French manufacturers were able to lob masses of old uncompetitive unsold stocks that extremely unusually was allowed to push 4x the number of locally/EU manufactured EV-‘s through it, as the government had originally budgeted for … and now the EU extra import duty of 30-35% slapped onto non-EU EV’s since 1st November.

And yet all the European manufacturers did till the last year or two, was offer an old ICE saloon body (and mostly, old platform) with an electric motor stuck in it. Firstly their customer is not saloon car man much of the time anymore, and secondly there has been no original thought as to new builds for other segments. Particularly at the cheaper end for other types of people, who don’t have access to subsidised company cars and who need to use their vehicles differently.

Asian manufacturers have done that thinking about the broader market and made useful EV’s accessible. Whereas despite all the subsidies and protections enjoyed year after year, EU manufacturers haven’t innovated.

Is it a coincidence that around now just as Chinese vehicles imported to EU get hit by the first 30% surcharges (a sign of desperation as EU produced vehicles are not matching customers’ needs at a price they can pay) there are loads of press reports about how VW is having to close factories, about how Mercedes is in trouble and in only 3 Quarters will be in the red, that ome Stellantis factories in emotive original locations are now suspending production for a period so as not to have too much unsold stock, and that car plants in Italy are taking industrial action because the manufacturing for cars being sold to the Italian market is being given further East in the EU?

The trouble is, the EU car manufacturers seem to have leverage over governments. Due to all the indirect jobs and taxation they can say they also bring whilst holding their hands out for more. They aee changing to EV specific platforms and new tooling and production just now, but at a glacial speed. And still no new EV’s from EU manufacturers that address more private EV type needs at more realistic family budgets as the Asian manufacturers have produced. Asian manufacturers did that thinking nearly a decade ago.

China and Korea in particular, are now onstream to provide innovation conformant with European safety standards, specifications snd configurations suitable for private buyers at an accessible cost. Accessible cost except, of course, in Europe. Where European nanufacturers have been allowed to keep prices high and higher whilst delivering poorer and poorer value.

And now the Asian mnufacturers could have added seriously undercutting UK/European orice levels to their more suitable more inovative vehicles, even having taken into account the cost of meeting the ever-expanding list of European safety features and requirements, the EU has made sure they can’t offer better prices as well as better vehicles, by slapping on an extra tariff of 30% or so.

I do believe the ability to manufacture our own vehicles should be kept for defence. But the answer might be to encourage inward investment by those who are currently doing it better, as the UK has done and perhaps having them compete locally side by side will eventually turn out to be the answer for Europe.

As a private buyer, I’m currently sick of so much taxes and privilege going to European car manufacturers for such poor results and it’s gone on for too long.

[JDB]

@TGLoyalty – I have accepted the facts you have preferred on the basis but one comment – “MG (SAIC backed and state owned) isn’t making waves either” didn’t smell right and upon checking isn’t very accurate.

While not “making waves” isn’t very precise, it implies a lack of success when in 2023, MG (with 81,289 cars sold) sold more cars in the UK than Peugeot, Skoda, Peugeot, Citroen, Renault, Jaguar, Fiat or Land Rover and far more than Tesla (49,571) or Polestar (12,543). Looks pretty successful to me. The showroom on Piccadilly is a strong statement of intent. There’s a clear reason why they are doing well.

I’m sure the irony of the apparent criticism of Chinese state ownership isn’t lost on you, given that MG was owned by the British state that ran the company into the ground…

[gs_mit]

The elephant in the room is battery manufacturing and software development, not just the car per se. Where Europe missed the bus and are struggling. It takes one person the same amount of effort to assemble an EV as it does 3 people to assemble an ICE. However, the reverse is true if you look at the end to end value chain (making battery packs, software development etc). Then it takes 3 people’s effort to build an EV compared for one person to build an ICE. Battery packs and related assemblies is notoriously labor-intensive (robots aren’t yet precise enough). This “total labor effort” difference between ICE/EV is well-known in the auto manufacturing industry, and several papers have examined the counter-intuitive cost structures. Therefore, for European automakers to be competitive in the EV value chain, need to build scale in batteries and software development. The European carmakers can say all kinds of things to circumvent this basics.

[TGLoyalty]

@JDB are we still taking EV in here? 2023 MG EV sales were c20k so 1/4 of their total, MG sell ICE and Hybrids. In context of the U.K. market of 2m cars that year it’s not a wave.

If we expand that to Europe then 13m cars sold that year and MG sold about 160k and it’s taken since 2007 to get here. You’re acting like it’s a tidal wave of change.

In some replies you talk about as if this Chinese take over is going to happen any day in others it’s give it time. Are you a Manchester Utd fan at all 😉

I also have no issue with SAIC being state owned I was just stating they are because you were denying any Chinese government involvement other than letting their private entrepreneurs have an environment were they’re allowed to succeed.