Electric company car – Tesla – advice

[RonnieB]

toddy wrote:

RonnieB wrote:

Fact is when I see a Tesla supercharger station – no-one is using it, all the Teslas are plugged into the public charger network. That tells you something as well!

Why on earth would a Tesla owner use a public charger network, if a supercharger was an option? That makes zero sense.

I’m more than happy to find there is always space at a supercharger. Saves me the hassle of having multiple apps on my phone, slower speeds, poor reliability & a boot full of various adaptors.

Probably because it is much cheaper!!
Certainly in Scotland a lot of the public chargers are owned by local authorities and subsidised.

[toddy]

RonnieB wrote:

Probably because it is much cheaper!!

Perhaps in Scotland but in England/Wales, that’s simply not true.

Tesla is 28p KWH (150/250 kwh charger)
Gridserve is 39p KWH (60kwh charger)
Podpoint is 26p (50kwh charger)
Instavolt is 45p
BP Pulse is 42p (150kwh charger)

• This reply was modified 54 years, 11 months ago by .

[Carlos]

RonnieB wrote:

QwertyKnowsBest wrote:

Took delivery of a Polestar 2 at the start of this month. I’m really enjoying the car and drive. Previously only ever bought vehicles outright, always bought ‘right’ and a better deal than leasing etc.

This is not the first EV or Hybrid i have purchased. However, given the uncertainty re residual values etc on EV’s, leased this one.

Tesla V Polestar. My take was one is built by a technology/battery company that builds cars, the other a car company (Volvo) that build high tech cars.

I got a P2 in August and can’t fault it, it’s a fantastic car in every way. Tried a Model 3 but wasn’t impressed, good charging network and fast – but that’s about it. The P2 is plenty fast, especially withy new OTA power upgrade, and Tesla charging network will be open to everyone soon if I need it – which I don’t.

Build quality and driving experience much better with Polestar.

memesweeper wrote:

Carlos wrote:

Thanks for the leasing suggestions, this has been done in the past personally twice albeit not via business. Infact doesnt have to be Tesla can be an alt full electric vehicle but considering a 2017 S model vs 2019 model 3

Model S is big and you might not like the turning circle. Model 3 feels more nimble and easier to park.

If you decide on Model S get a post-facelift one, the headlights are drastically better.

Get air suspension and the ride is streets ahead of Model 3.

I’ve driven many miles in both and would take the older Model S myself, provided I could get air suspension and cold weather pack. I’m a high mileage driver, if you do fewer long journeys and more in cities then M3 might be ideal. The big gotcha is poor sound proofing which is noticeable at high speeds.

Although they are quiet ‘marmite’ I’ve found Teslas to be much better than any other EV, including the Polestar, although it is a beautiful looking machine. I’ve got an Etron 55 at the moment, which is the first EV I’ve been in to better the MS for ride comfort. This comes at the expense of worse tech and shorter range though.

Thanks thats useful. Thoughts are with the model 3 as not a heavy user like some. Seem to be scratching head regarding the polestar, suppose they both require a test drive. I noticed the model s has depreciated almost 50% in 5 years, not sure if that is industry standard or not but looking to swap within 3 years..maybe quicker if its a 2016 model S.

[Carlos]

Thanks for the replies, thinking of the model 3 as opposed to the s then as wont be a heavy user and a quick calculation says that the model s has deprecated 50% of its value within 5 years… this most likely would be swapped out within the next 2 years as dont want to hold onto a used battery for 7+ years. Scratching head about the polestar 2, suppose it requires a test drive.

RonnieB wrote:

QwertyKnowsBest wrote:

Took delivery of a Polestar 2 at the start of this month. I’m really enjoying the car and drive. Previously only ever bought vehicles outright, always bought ‘right’ and a better deal than leasing etc.

This is not the first EV or Hybrid i have purchased. However, given the uncertainty re residual values etc on EV’s, leased this one.

Tesla V Polestar. My take was one is built by a technology/battery company that builds cars, the other a car company (Volvo) that build high tech cars.

I got a P2 in August and can’t fault it, it’s a fantastic car in every way. Tried a Model 3 but wasn’t impressed, good charging network and fast – but that’s about it. The P2 is plenty fast, especially withy new OTA power upgrade, and Tesla charging network will be open to everyone soon if I need it – which I don’t.

Build quality and driving experience much better with Polestar.

memesweeper wrote:

Carlos wrote:

Thanks for the leasing suggestions, this has been done in the past personally twice albeit not via business. Infact doesnt have to be Tesla can be an alt full electric vehicle but considering a 2017 S model vs 2019 model 3

Model S is big and you might not like the turning circle. Model 3 feels more nimble and easier to park.

If you decide on Model S get a post-facelift one, the headlights are drastically better.

Get air suspension and the ride is streets ahead of Model 3.

I’ve driven many miles in both and would take the older Model S myself, provided I could get air suspension and cold weather pack. I’m a high mileage driver, if you do fewer long journeys and more in cities then M3 might be ideal. The big gotcha is poor sound proofing which is noticeable at high speeds.

Although they are quiet ‘marmite’ I’ve found Teslas to be much better than any other EV, including the Polestar, although it is a beautiful looking machine. I’ve got an Etron 55 at the moment, which is the first EV I’ve been in to better the MS for ride comfort. This comes at the expense of worse tech and shorter range though.

Thanks thats useful. Thoughts are with the model 3 as not a heavy user like some. Seem to be scratching head regarding the polestar, suppose they both require a test drive. I noticed the model s has depreciated almost 50% in 5 years, not sure if that is industry standard or not but looking to swap within 3 years..maybe quicker if its a 2016 model S.

[Thegasman]

I went with etron 55 as it felt like a true luxury vehicle rather than Tesla’s which look great on the surface but scratch the surface and build/finish quality is far worse. Audi also feels like a normal car that happens to be electric vs Tesla which has a number of features that take some adapting to (1 peddle driving etc). Tesla’s have better range but VWAG have far superior battery management so you can charge at high speed (150kw) over a far greater charge range (20-80%) than Tesla’s which will throttle down at 60%. I can get to London & back from Sheffield with a 15 minute stop at Milton Keynes Ionity on each leg. Consider your driving patterns, for me with very rare journeys over 150miles the range has always been absolutely fine.

The 1/2% BIK makes it a no brainer if you can take advantage but lets be honest, that will be jumping to the usual 15%+ level in April 25 which will likely affect anyone taking out a 3 year lease now considering lead times.

[memesweeper]

Carlos wrote:

I noticed the model s has depreciated almost 50% in 5 years

Residuals on all EVs are very strong at the moment. Supply is outstripped by demand across all types. How long this will last I don’t know, but it feels like a long term trend to me.

[Carlos]

Great, just need to select an EV installer. I am content with 7kw (dont need high KW ones than that)
Can someone recommend one they have used? It looks circa 550-590 installed via online.

[toddy]

Carlos wrote:

Great, just need to select an EV installer. I am content with 7kw (dont need high KW ones than that)
Can someone recommend one they have used? It looks circa 550-590 installed via online.

Where in the country are you based Carlos? I can recommend someone but he’s based in Cheshire.

Can I also double check you are aware of the grant available under the Electric Vehicle Homecharge Scheme? (up to £350).

[RonnieB]

memesweeper wrote:

Carlos wrote:

I noticed the model s has depreciated almost 50% in 5 years

Residuals on all EVs are very strong at the moment. Supply is outstripped by demand across all types. How long this will last I don’t know, but it feels like a long term trend to me.

Yes they are, take a look at the polestar website – you can buy a six month old ex demo, but it will cost you more than new price!

[RonnieB]

toddy wrote:

Perhaps in Scotland but in England/Wales, that’s simply not true.

Tesla is 28p KWH (150/250 kwh charger)
Gridserve is 39p KWH (60kwh charger)
Podpoint is 26p (50kwh charger)
Instavolt is 45p
BP Pulse is 42p (150kwh charger)

That is not good – there are still some local council areas in Scotland that do not charge for electricity, even on 50kw rapid chargers. That will probably start to change, but even then we are looking at 15p/Kwh

[Ladyshopper]

We ordered an E-niro 2 long range back in October, with a lead time given of March.

Debated over lease or purchase, in the end went for purchase. If there was a leasing option through my husband’s work we may have made a decision, but although they’re talking about it, no idea when it might actually come in.

We benefitted from the high used car prices for both our cars. One we’re part-exchanging in, the other I sold to Cazoo (for £500 more than the part-ex I was going to get).

For leasing, it was looking at £13 – £14k for 3 years for that vehicle when we looked. We’ll be looking to change the car in 3 years, so even if the value goes down a similar amount (which I think unlikely, but who knows), then we’re no worse off than we would have been leasing. Plus if we hate the car for any reason (again, unlikely), we’re free to get rid sooner.

We ordered when they were still doing the £2.5k electric vehicle grant on cars up to £35k. This has been cut now, so glad we ordered when we did.

Our car is due in the country today, so hoping to get it in the next couple of weeks.

We got our charger fitted via pod point. No problems with fitting etc.

[modestpointscollector]

Carlos wrote:

Great, just need to select an EV installer. I am content with 7kw (dont need high KW ones than that)
Can someone recommend one they have used? It looks circa 550-590 installed via online.

Zappi from MyEnergi are regarded to be the best around, but truth be told unless you’re doing anything particularly cool with your power at home (such as local generation or battery storage) an EVSE/charger just checks that your car is a car when you plug it in, and then hooks it into the mains. That said, there’s something definitely value in quality support from a British manufacturer, so up to you. There is a link on their (Myenergi) website that lets installers near to you bid on the work to do the install. They’re also one of the few suppliers who have a 22kW 3 phase unit on the Ozev list (I know you said you’re just after a standard 7kW single phase, just info for anyone passing through tbh) – The price you have seems to be in the right ballpark for a more expensive install with the grant or a very cheap one without the grant. Ozev runs out at the of March and i know there’s quite high demand for installs so dependent on your location you may or may not get it in time for the cut off.

I’ve just recently cancelled an order for a BMW i4 – I got rid of my previous car which was on PCP early due to the insane 2nd hand rates. I was going to put the money towards the i4 but I ended up spending half of it and BMW weren’t particularly forthcoming with any good deals that made me feel like i was getting value. I think with the current market if you can get on an employee salary sacrifice scheme and you were looking at getting an EV on PCP anyway, it really is a no brainer. Massively tax advantageous, some people could be seeing upwards of a 60% discount on the monthly payment, the only question mark is what will the BIK look like after 24/25 – Personally, i can’t see it jumping from 2% to something like 20%, so even if you’re a standard rate tax earner you only end back up at “I would have paid that anyway” territory in the last year of your agreement. So it depends how you’re looking to run this EV really.

I am lucky enough that my work have just announced out of nowhere they’re going to do this scheme in conjunction with Tusker – I don’t suppose anyone here has any recent price lists at all do they?

• This reply was modified 54 years, 11 months ago by .

[redlilly]

Reigniting this thread – any recent data points on value of leasing car (hybrid and/or electric) via work scheme, vs buying outright?

Not in to crazy fancy cars. Just want something practical, which does reasonable EV mileage.

We have the spur in place to install the charging point at home. Just weighing up what to do. Own a car outright, which we are willing to trade in or just sell. In no rush.

[TGLoyalty]

You probably need to look at your personal tax situation in detail to see if it’s worth it but high level if you’re paying a decent chunk above higher rate or in the painful £100k-120k bracket then probably makes far more sense to salary sacrifice.

EVs are still 2% BIK, 3% in 25/26 with 1% pa rises for the next two years after that and 2% pa for the two years after that. Still very favourable vs ICE (34%+) and Hybrid (12%+)

Also what type of driving do you mostly do? If it’s mostly short round town/ county and within 200-250 mile return journeys from your home then EV right now is a no brainer. Even if you do joirneys that are longer than that fast chargers are everywhere (zap-map will show you that) but it adds to cost and time.

Personally I’d still lease than buy outright right now as I think the tech is starting to get to a level that is really competitive from a range and charging perspective but you might want to replace in 3-4 years time with a car that’s doing 500 miles range and charging at 300kw etc or not depending on how you’d answer the average journey question.

[JDB]

redlilly wrote:

Reigniting this thread – any recent data points on value of leasing car (hybrid and/or electric) via work scheme, vs buying outright?

Not in to crazy fancy cars. Just want something practical, which does reasonable EV mileage.

We have the spur in place to install the charging point at home. Just weighing up what to do. Own a car outright, which we are willing to trade in or just sell. In no rush.

If you aren’t in any rush, I would hang on. The tax advantages are amazing for company EV car purchases, but the private EV market has largely dried up for good reason. I think the current impasse on Chinese EV tariffs will have to be resolved – if European governments wish to accelerate the transition to electric cars they cannot ultimately block market forces for consumers to benefit from lower priced really good cheap electric cars. The more sensible European car companies like Stellantis are anti tariffs.

Having just returned from China and been in a great many great electric cars, so superior to European ones, from brands one has heard of and many one hasn’t, we will certainly be waiting to make the move to EVs.

[TGLoyalty]

They’re cheap because they’re subsidised. Hence additional tariffs, you’re right the manufacturers don’t want them but that’s probably because they have lots of excess capacity in their Chinese plants and JV partners plants and shipping the cars back to the EU would be a likely next move but the 10% duty is highly likely to stay.

Also while Europe will see an influx of all sorts of wierd and wonderful Chinese EV brands the U.K. is less likely to because we’re RHD, it makes a big difference in tooling, engineering, Facilities investment and some difference manufacturing costs.

Firefly (Nio) will be announced soon expect it towards end of next year if not 26, XPeng G6 launches imminently, BYD is already here, not sure if the Xiaomi SUV7 will make it over here but again late next year if it does.

OP didn’t mention what type of car or likely price point so don’t knows if these would be of interest.

BTW have a look at 2nd hand prices I saw some I-Pace’s for next to nothing considering their size and performance. All pretty well specd too.

[Lady London]

TGLoyalty “they [China] have lots of excess capacity in their Chinese plants and JV partners plants and shipping the cars back to the EU would be a likely next move’

Don’t think they can ship the cars back to the EU since 1st November as the EU has just slapped taxes of around 30% onto imported Chinese EV’s.

Consumers of course will end up the ones who pay more for less.

[JDB]

@TGLoyalty – these Chinese EVs aren’t subsidised any more than the sorts of local subsidies we offer in Europe. The European legacy car makers admit this, but like legacy banks and airlines, they struggle to change their mindsets, business models and take forever to design and manufacture new models. Tesla came and ate their lunch by being much more nimble, starting with a clean sheet of paper/manufacturing plants. The attempt simply to put a battery into an ICE car shell isn’t very satisfactory for the customer. Chinese EV manufacturers have the scale and entrepreneurial spirit to develop totally new products that look and feel totally different. You should see what the Chinese are now doing in wine as well. When they set their minds to do something…

It’s unfortunate, but the business models of some European car producers are no longer sustainable so unless they actually embrace the competition and produce new products, they will go bust.

PS I didn’t really have you down as a protectionist! Consumers deserve the option of these cheaper, better cars without tariffs.

[TGLoyalty]

“ these Chinese EVs aren’t subsidised any more than the sorts of local subsidies we offer in Europe.”

They get more than just tax incentives and R&D relief/credits. They’re getting below market value discounts on parts that don’t exist in the EU because the suppliers are owned by the Chinese government.

It’s also an industry built on the knowledge gleaned from EU manufacturers, there was a time when the Chinese authorities made them submit detailed cases drawings for parts etc. the whole reason for forced JVs was to build up the local knowledge base with a huge head start which is also fine but don’t think the Chinese have done it all off their own backs because “they’re better and the EU ones are crap”

What they have done well is pretty much skip ICE investment completely and the best facilities while some parts manufacturers are struggling to invest in the latest factories and tech in Europe because of legacy costs. Abit like the ME3 vs the western airlines. It’s a great advantage.

I’m not a protectionist I didn’t say I was for tariffs just said why there’s more to the story than just cheaper prices are good for consumers. Also China have charged EU manufacturers high duties for years from 10% for EVs and up to 40% on v8 engines. So it’s not some sort of great injustice.

But anyway this is being taken elsewhere. If you know which other Chinese EVs than the ones I listed are worth waiting years for let the OP know.

BTW firefly from Nio is being engineered in Warwickshire … not China. Xpeng use Nvidea tech.

[JDB]

@TGLoyalty – I’m afraid some of your comments are straight forward sinophobia and not based on fact; the CEO’s of Stellantis and BMW tell an entirely different story to you and they have real skin in the game. Of course the Chinese EV manufacturers skipped ICE investment as the fintechs skipped legacy bank investments and LCC’s started afresh. Why on earth should that be held against them? Are we really expected to let the consumer suffer and stay in the dark ages while governments desperately wrap decaying industries in cotton wool and build a protectionist wall around them – all at huge cost to the taxpayer.

The simple fact is that the Chinese government has created an environment where entrepreneurship can thrive whereas the EU and UK is too meddling and has too much red tape plus huge costs.

You ask which EVs are worth waiting years for which rather misses the point. New models are being developed at lightning speed because founders make quick decisions, Musk style leaving the likes of VW trailing behind.

Europeans deserve to benefit from this great technological and manufacturing advance and not have to pay the price for the total incompetence of legacy manufacturers and their sluggish response to going green.

[TGLoyalty]

“not based on fact”

Which ones?

China have 10%-40%+ tariffs on EU automotive imports. FACT

They forced EU OEMs to share CAD and technical knowledge to allow imports. FACT.

The largest Chinese automotive suppliers and OEMs are state owned. FACT

You seem to read what you want on skipping ICE investment completely I said it was a great advantages. I never said it was an unfair one. FACT

I know more about the workings of the U.K. and EU Automotive industry than reading a few public statements from stellantis CEOs (he’s driving the company into the ground. Look at the press around him) and BMW (huge capacity in China and actively dropping sales forecasts and is worried they’ll hit his business with reciprocal tarriffs and penalties in China. Nothing to do with the European consumer). VW is actively closing plants because the EU car market hasn’t recovered since covid.

Their comments are about their business in China being further affected not the EU consumer.

To sum up my actual view EU tariffs aren’t baseless and the Chinese aren’t all bad but it’s not a level playing field because the Chinese government is actively involved in market cost interference. No matter how much you seem to think it isn’t. Neither of the CEOs you referenced said the claims the EU were making were incorrect or baseless either.

[JDB]

Well, I’m not sure if it’s Luddism or protectionism but it’s all against the interests of the average consumer who can’t currently find or afford an electric car.

[TGLoyalty]

“ New models are being developed at lightning speed because founders make quick decisions, Musk style leaving the likes of VW trailing behind.”

Average development cycle for a vehicle is 4 years. The Chinese aren’t doing it any faster they started 8-9 years ago.

Musk had an idea and executed it well but Model S is over 10 years old if he’s so quick where it’s replacment? The cyxbertruck is a joke and the robotaxi will not be self driving in 2026.

Dyson failed. Ratcliffe will fail and the Grenadier is shit. Making cars isn’t easy it’s not because the EU manufacturers are crap it’s because the transition to EV while making ICE and Hybrid is far more labour intensive and they’re having to make choices on what to prioritise.

[Lady London]

Do you guys think there is a case for these new huge tariffs on Chinese EVs imported to Europe. Based on a view that that still having a Europe/UK car industry is important for self-sufficiency and could be important for defense or if otherwise SHTF.

The tariffs being intended to give the industry in UK/Europe time to catch up? and to preserve all the jobs and taxes that depend on the industry rather than let China eliminate the industry.

I know what I think, but wondering what TGL and JDB think.

[TGLoyalty]

It’s a global market. The Europeans made hay in China so why couldn’t the Chinese with a superior product (if you think that’s what it is) but honestly the Chinese brands have 0 equity here and the consumer isn’t turning to EV by default. So I think not

Case in point – Nio sold 11 cars last month in Norway, it has a Nio house in Oslo and Norway is as EV pro as it gets in Europe. Tells you all you need to know.

Also you might buy a BYD vs a Vauxhall but vs a bmw or merc? Not based on current sales volumes when they’re competing vs each other.

Polestar (Geely backed Volvo EV spin off) is doing pretty poorly in the EU/uk and even China and it was a brand built for the Chinese market. Having driven one it’s not even a contender for top 10 EV drives.

MG (SAIC backed and state owned) isnt making waves either

Could Nio or Xpeng do better who knows they have a compelling product.

“rather than let China eliminate the industry.”

Won’t happen.