HELP! Avios redemption with Finnair cancelled

[johnl]

Hi guys,

I know these questions get asked multiple times, however, I was hoping you could advise me on a Finnair flight that I booked from Helsinki to Bangkok in July-August using Avios via BA’s Website. It’s a bit niche, however here we go.

Last week, I had an email from BA saying they had cancelled the flight and we were being offered a new Finnair flight with a new flight number.

The original flight left at 17:20. The new flight leaves at 00:45 the next morning. 7 hours and 25 minutes later. Likewise, the return leg was moved by over 12 hours from 8:55 to 21:30.

I am travelling with my wife and a 6 year old. This is unsuitable. I booked the original flights due to the favourable flight times. I booked flights LHR-HEL as a cash ticket. And originally that would mean 5 hours to get out, go through immigration, then go straight back into the lounge (BA/Finnair don’t interline separate tickets). Likewise, my return leg was booked so we could have a night in HEL and then fly the next day. However, the new flight would now arrive the next morning meaning that we would arrive at 6am and then leave at 19:30 the same day.

Best laid plans…..

I have spoken with 3 separate agents who have given me different advice every time.

I have played nice and been very polite but my demeanour is beginning to crack. They, at one point, looked for flights from LHR to BKK but the system wouldn’t allow (300 mile rule negates). They have only looked at Avios redemption flights via OneWorld Carriers. They will not entertain the idea of cash flights, or flights out of their system.

At one point, Qatar flight HEL-BKK leaving around the same time as my original booking 17:20 was offered but again that was retracted after system wouldn’t allow. After much toing and froing, the third agent spoke to a supervisor, and then came back to me, took the offers off the table and said it was accept the new flights or take a refund. “The terms and conditions we have with Finnair do not allow it.”

I asked for a copy of these terms but she was scrambling, umming and arring. She couldn’t find them. I asked them to be sent to me. I am still waiting.

I mentioned EU261 and she again mentioned the terms of passage.

It is my understanding that under EU261, a cancelled flight should be accommodated. If the delay is unreasonable (7 and 12 hours) then an alternative should be matched. I have given up on the LHR idea (it was worth a shot), however, I should expect to fly on a similar service. I’ve even offered to take the Qatar flight which has a stopover in Doha in the middle of the night. Just as long as I’m not stuck outside Helsinki Airport for 8 hours. I’ve also offered to take the return flight BKK – HEL the day before.

I understand they have no obligation regarding my cash tickets but I need to make it work. 7 hours and 12 hour delays surely warrant a better response from BA?

They have no said that if I want to take it further I should submit a complaint online. Waiting time 4 weeks.

I am getting no response from BA’s twitter in DM’s or tweets. I’ve got to say again, I’ve been polite and now I’m getting firm. But this general lack of acceptance of the law (as I see it) is really getting my goat.

Am I being unreasonable or should I push further?

[Lady London]

(1) what is the exact timng dep and arr of your existing cash flights to from lon and hel. What will you lose if you cancel them. Are they changeable for a fee. I can’t remember if flights can still be FTV’d it will depend on yr purchase date but we might be looking at this

(2) highly likely that whatever you switch to now gets changed again. Esp BA cos BA is a mess and Finnair cos of Ukraine impact their whole business.

(3) You have a flight cancellation on your booking or a flight number changed which counts as same thing. This means you get to choose when you travel including different date. No doubt about that.

(4) keep detailed notes of all your requests, their refusals time and date ideally who you spoke to. If you’ve tried 3 times it’s time to send a Letter Before Action after 1 more time stating very specifically what you want and I would give them 30 days to provide.

(5) you can book your own flight on anyone you choose since you tried seriously 3 times. Then you’d have to claim, then LBA, then MCOL (or CEDR if you’re feeling cheap, and like risk). However if you want to give BA one more chance work out your own preferred itinerary using airline timetables (forget pricing, only timing matters) and put together about 3 alternatives you could live with. Then talk to BA

(6) in order: look first for which flights you want to be on, on the UK/Europe to BKK sector. Then work out how to reach the longhaul flight to BKK (eg by FTVing your current cash tix then using FTV to buy to posiion for new flight to BKK.) So you could use 300 mile rule.

(7) basically, in order, BA is going to be most willing to ticket you on their own flights, then other Oneworld where they have a deal (such as : QR comes and goes and so did Finnair but Finnair can’t be counted on now),other Oneworld, anyone else BA has an arrangement with, then Star Alliance if they have a deal (they have had the odd deal with LH), then rest of Star, then Skyteam, then Virgin.

Basically BA’s willngness to ticket you, currently prob stops somewhere around QR and Finnair on that list. Them not having a deal is not your problem they are acting illegally by refusing to ticket you on an airline that can get you where you need to go. So you try to find a flight they will ticket you on. Then any flight(but illegally they will refuse and you will have to pay out, claim and sue or CEDR.)

(8) Does AA fly to Bangkok? Lon-US-Bkk might be a long way round but prob the most reliable way of getting ticketed and getting there. CX may have issues too although in the past I’d have leaped for them first on this and gone via Hongkong.

(9) Stockholm Arlanda is within 300 miles you could see if they would reroute you from there instead.
IIRC BA’s legal obligation is to get you from HEL to BKK and back, the 300 mile thing is a concession by them so be nice if asking to switch to ARN instead if you can get there to meet a flight sequence from ARN you’ve identified.

(10) no don’t let them push you into a refund they absolutely are liable for rerouting you.

(11) no there does not have to be award seat available on yr chosen new flight. You are entitled to any seat available in same cabin. This might help, make sure you remind them.

[Jon]

Exactly what Lady London says. If you haven’t already, it’s well worth taking half an hour to read the actual EU261 legislation – it’s only 7 pages long and not unduly complicated.

https://eur-lex.europa.eu/resource.html?uri=cellar:439cd3a7-fd3c-4da7-8bf4-b0f60600c1d6.0004.02/DOC_1&format=PDF

Strictly speaking you should refer to UK261 when dealing with BA – UK261 is essentially just a wrapper to bring EU261 into UK law post Brexit. The substance is basically the same.

One note of caution – the obligations provided by EU261 ultimately rest with the operating carrier, not with whoever you booked with – so if BA doesn’t play ball, you would need to speak to Finnair directly. With any luck they’ll do the right thing, but quite possibly they’ll just bounce you back to BA, saying they can’t take over another airline’s ticket (they can, by issuing a new one, but they won’t want to). I’m not sure whether you’d be able to use MCOL against Finnair as the flight starts in Helsinki and so would presumably be governed by EU, not UK, law – someone else with more knowledge than I may be able to clarify that. I assume you’d have to use an EU court? I imagine you could still take BA to CEDR though, which may get you somewhere, although in my case BA declined to comply with the ruling and had to be threatened with legal action anyway (which did then elicit compliance).

What card did you use to pay for the taxes/charges part of your redemption flight? Another option might be to speak to them about making a Section 75 claim for the full cost of buying your replacement flights to BKK, then let them deal with recovering funds from BA.

One lesson I learned from my case last year (and it took literally the whole year to resolve) is that partner redemptions are an absolute nightmare when a flight gets cancelled (at least when BA has anything to do with it).

Good luck!

[Lady London]

s75 not so cut and dried. An alternative has been offered and even though it’s a cancellation so passenger has right to reject this might be somehing the card would wriggle on. Better might be if choosing to reroute at a later date instead as if that was refused it’s a clearer breach of rights that come with the purchase.

Good point Jon, best to just keep dealing with BA once some analysis has been done to try to identify a routng they should be more willing to ticket. Leave Finnair out if you can get BA to ticket another way to get there. Also if you sue you’d have to LBA and MCOL them both jointly. As UK resident buying on UK website buying from British company I’d expect to be able to sue them using UK process although IANAL

[johnl]

Thanks for the comprehensive answers. It’s in the area of what I thought.

Ultimately I just want to reroute from HEL and as there’s no other direct flights, I’d be ‘happy’ to take the Qatar flight and then return on the Finnair flight the day before so it works with our plans and ticket home. I can make that work.

I guess I have to continue with the complaint procedure and keep these options open for now.

[meta]

The obligations for HEL-BKK under EU261 actually lie with Finnair as they are the operational airline. I’d contact them and get them involved too.

[SamG]

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/traveltrade/bookings-policies/policies/standard-customer-guidelines

“Prime other carrier” Option 3 , suggests that BA can rebook you onto another OW carrier within 24hrs. There was another poster who got a Finnair ticket rebooked to Qatar recently (though there may have been award availability)

May be worth calling back and quoting that

[strickers]

I had a BA agent agree to route me on Qatar when a similar thing happened, unfortunately there was no availability in business class which I confirmed myself rather than just trusting him. It was when I mentioned my rights under UK261 that the tone changed. It’s better to go to them with a plan and suggest routes rather than letting them come up with options. Our Finnair flights were brought forward by 12 hours, in the end we pushed it back a day and came back 12 hours late.

[Jon]

Just a thought, and one for the Duty of Care experts here… If it comes down to a choice between a longer transit and midnight departure at Helsinki, or a middle-of-the-night transfer in Doha (appreciate that might not be a simple choice with a child in tow ;-), might Duty of Care cover you for a day room at a Helsinki airport hotel in each direction (or at least on the outbound, if you were going to pay for an overnight on the way back anyway) if you took the offered Finnair flights? I recall the Hilton at the airport being quite nice, and you’d still have plenty of time to get into town on the train if you wanted to. The city centre is a lovely area to pass the time, and you’d probably even have time to get the ferry to Suomenlinna on the return if you didn’t want to do the centre twice.

[johnl]

Hi Jon, as I’m booked on two separate tickets, I don’t believe there’s any recourse for them to do so. Would be nice but given I’ve hit a brick wall with the “take the new Finnair flights or get your money/Avios back” stuff I can’t see them doing anything like that.

[johnl]

strickers wrote:

I had a BA agent agree to route me on Qatar when a similar thing happened, unfortunately there was no availability in business class which I confirmed myself rather than just trusting him. It was when I mentioned my rights under UK261 that the tone changed. It’s better to go to them with a plan and suggest routes rather than letting them come up with options. Our Finnair flights were brought forward by 12 hours, in the end we pushed it back a day and came back 12 hours late.

I went with a plan last time. Suggested Qatar routes (no business availability). Told them that they were obligated to put me on an equivalent flight but I was willing to take the stopover flight in Doha as a compromise. No dice.

[Lady London]

SamG wrote:

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/traveltrade/bookings-policies/policies/standard-customer-guidelines

“Prime other carrier” Option 3 , suggests that BA can rebook you onto another OW carrier within 24hrs. There was another poster who got a Finnair ticket rebooked to Qatar recently (though there may have been award availability)

May be worth calling back and quoting that

SamG wrote:

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/traveltrade/bookings-policies/policies/standard-customer-guidelines

“Prime other carrier” Option 3 , suggests that BA can rebook you onto another OW carrier within 24hrs. There was another poster who got a Finnair ticket rebooked to Qatar recently (though there may have been award availability)

May be worth calling back and quoting that

SamG wrote:

https://www.britishairways.com/en-gb/traveltrade/bookings-policies/policies/standard-customer-guidelines

“Prime other carrier” Option 3 , suggests that BA can rebook you onto another OW carrier within 24hrs. There was another poster who got a Finnair ticket rebooked to Qatar recently (though there may have been award availability)

May be worth calling back and quoting that

Award availablity is not required on the new flight. Any seat is legally able to be rerouted into if BA having cancelled a flight is why you’re rerouting.

[SamG]

Agree- not required by my reading of that policy. That is not well known at BA though for sure – hence worth calling back and directing them to it and asking for the QR reroute

[johnl]

SamG wrote:

Agree- not required by my reading of that policy. That is not well known at BA though for sure – hence worth calling back and directing them to it and asking for the QR reroute

Thanks SamG. That page is a treasure trove. Trying to get my head round the iterations but I think there’s enough there to rebut them.

Lady London, your knowledge and amazingness knows no bounds.

[SamG]

johnl wrote:

SamG wrote:

Agree- not required by my reading of that policy. That is not well known at BA though for sure – hence worth calling back and directing them to it and asking for the QR reroute

Thanks SamG. That page is a treasure trove. Trying to get my head round the iterations but I think there’s enough there to rebut them.

Lady London, your knowledge and amazingness knows no bounds.

Indeed it is. It is the “Oneworld Prime” bit you are looking at in this scenario 👍

[johnl]

SamG wrote:

johnl wrote:

SamG wrote:

Agree- not required by my reading of that policy. That is not well known at BA though for sure – hence worth calling back and directing them to it and asking for the QR reroute

Thanks SamG. That page is a treasure trove. Trying to get my head round the iterations but I think there’s enough there to rebut them.

Lady London, your knowledge and amazingness knows no bounds.

Indeed it is. It is the “Oneworld Prime” bit you are looking at in this scenario 👍

So their Twitter team finally got back to me a week after first trying to contact and I showed them the screengrab and link you suggested and they said it didn’t apply to this situation as that guidance is for within 24 hours.

Then they did the most shady thing I’ve seen in a while. They told me I only had 24 hours to rebook the tickets that were on offer otherwise they would be released. Obviously held them to task. Told them what flights I wanted. They said they weren’t on offer.

This was a fluid twitter DM conversation until I mentioned EU261.

They didn’t reply. I chased two hours later. No reply.

Been 2 days. Still waiting…

[SamG]

johnl wrote:

SamG wrote:

johnl wrote:

SamG wrote:

Agree- not required by my reading of that policy. That is not well known at BA though for sure – hence worth calling back and directing them to it and asking for the QR reroute

Thanks SamG. That page is a treasure trove. Trying to get my head round the iterations but I think there’s enough there to rebut them.

Lady London, your knowledge and amazingness knows no bounds.

Indeed it is. It is the “Oneworld Prime” bit you are looking at in this scenario 👍

So their Twitter team finally got back to me a week after first trying to contact and I showed them the screengrab and link you suggested and they said it didn’t apply to this situation as that guidance is for within 24 hours.

Then they did the most shady thing I’ve seen in a while. They told me I only had 24 hours to rebook the tickets that were on offer otherwise they would be released. Obviously held them to task. Told them what flights I wanted. They said they weren’t on offer.

This was a fluid twitter DM conversation until I mentioned EU261.

They didn’t reply. I chased two hours later. No reply.

Been 2 days. Still waiting…

“Available when a oneworld flight has been cancelled within the past 24 hours”

I guess then this sentence is badly worded. This doesn’t actually surprise me based on my understanding, this isn’t a BA problem, Finnair are the operating carrier and the Eu261 responsibility lies with them.

BA as the agent can’t really go about rebooking into revenue classes on other airlines unless Finnair has a rebooking policy in place.

Unfortunately miles tickets issued by another carrier are a well known pain point. I had one in Asia that the operating airline wouldn’t rebook me into revenue space and I just had to get a refund.

I think your options are

1) try work on getting the LHR flights amended or arrangements made for your layovers

2) have one last push with BA and AY directly. Inform them you’ll be enforcing your right to reroute at the earliest opportunity. Then research legal options – I’m not sure if you can enforce against any Finnair entity here in the UK. My hesitation is you’d need to buy the QR tickets and being rerouted on the next AY isn’t hugely unreasonable in isolation. Make sure you’re happy that it’d 100% go your way. There is another thread here where an arbitrator didn’t enforce the rules

3) get an Avios refund. Spend them on your sainsbury shopping and buy the QR tickets for cash. Often they are so cheap (and don’t forget you’d also earn Avios) – might not work out badly !

[johnl]

Yeah, so this is where I am:

1) LHR amendments would cost more to change than to buy fresh, unfortunately. If all else fails and this all falls through then I will do a claim on insurance on these ones – but that’s my own personal nuclear option.

2) AY aren’t much better when trying to contact at the moment. When I go through their online messenger, they say that if it was booked by an agent or another airline then I must go through them. I have tried to just go round that and speak to an advisor online and they are saying that their chat lines are full.

3) The Helsinki option was chosen specifically to save cash because the taxes are cheap and after lockdown I wanted to go away with the family on a luxurious flight, use the airmiles we had, but also save the (ever increasing) taxes.

Like I say. Best laid plans. I even waited for weeks, checking out news articles to see about Russia interferences and then booked. Next day, they cancelled and changed but it was too late to cancel the other flights to connect.

My flight is due to leave end of July. I’ve got time but I am keen to get this sorted so we can plan this holiday with my family which will be 18 months overdue. Just annoying that I get nothing but pushback when they’re trying to force me onto a flight at 1am with my 6 year old after initially booking 5pm.

Anyway, I’m going on…. thanks for your help.