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Forums Other Flight changes and cancellations help HND to LHR BA0006 26th Nov 13:15 cancelled

  • carousel 27 posts

    Hi all, looking for some guidance here, we checked in online yesterday having already booked our seats a week earlier. A couple of hours later (approx 20 hours prior to take off) BA cancelled our flight home on BA0006 which was in business class (2-1 Amex + Avios booking). The system offered us an economy flight via Chicago back to London which I refused. I was in a slight panic as I was out in Tokyo with just my phone and they eventually agreed to book us on the next BA bus seats available which isnt until Tuesday 28th. This means an additional two nights in our hotel. When I got back to the hotel I could clearly see there are Japan Airline bus seats back on Sunday & Monday so asked if they would move us but they said no as I was only allowed one change to my flight and I had now made that?! I hadn’t made a change, they had cancelled us at reasonably short notice. Anyway just looking for advice really, does anyone know if BA will cover the cost of us staying on in our hotel? I’m annoyed at myself for accepting the flights but I did panic thinking about everyone else who would be looking for a new flight and felt pressure to accept the next best option but wasnt really up for a very long economy fight via the US (it was 25 hours in total). I did contact BA again on X (Twitter) and they basically said the same thing and if I wasnt happy to log a compliant or pay for another flight!

    JDB 4,147 posts

    Unfortunately BA is correct in respect of both their own policy and the requirements of UK261 – once you have made an election of a new flight, that’s final and you can’t change again for free. BA is liable for your reasonable hotel, food and some telecommunication costs during the delay period. You may also be entitled to compensation at the rate of £520pp unless BA can claim ‘extraordinary circumstances’.

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    We were also supposed to be on that cancelled flight in F. Offered a downgrade to CE on JAL, connecting through CDG. However, managed to change that online to F on the 29th straight to LHR. From previous experience, BA will pay hotel and food. Also looks like £520 UK261 will be due as cancellation is due to operational reasons.

    carousel 27 posts

    Thanks so much for the quick response, it’s frustrating at best but appreciate I should have been more on the ball and pushed for the JAL option prior to accepting the flight two days later. We’ve chosen to stay on at the hotel we’re in which isnt cheap and we’ve downgraded our room so fingers crossed they will cover this… What I am slightly concerned about too is I can now see our booking and the seating chart, we’ve not been assigned seats, and there is only one seat showing as available. When I queried this on the call they said the seats are now under control of the airport to assign. I’m a bit worried we’re going to get bumped off this flight too

    carousel 27 posts

    Sorry didnt see your other message too that you were on the flight, for your new one are you able to select your seats yet?

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    Yes I was able to select the seats. We were staying in a suite at the Hilton, which also wasn’t cheap. I’ve booked comparable at a Marriott, which was costly due to short notice and our hotel was sold out. I don’t expect any issue though. Quite happy to have the extra couple of days tbh.

    BJ 644 posts

    In these situations the first step is to familiarise ourselves again with our UK261 rights and check all available seats and routings before calling BA. If unhappy with choices they give jyst say you’ll think about it, hang up and call again in hope if better chouces from the next agent. I’m not sure how BA are thinking on such strategies these days. Yesterday I read a comment where a reader was re-booked back on Lufty despite seats being available on the second BA flight the sane day.

    carousel 27 posts

    Hi all, now we’re back, to claim the compensation under UK261 does that go with our claim for other expenses or would that need to be logged separately as a complaint? I should imagine quite a few complaints will be received for the flight yesterday as several of the seats in business class were broken and had to be manually operated by staff and at least two people in our cabin also had no entertainment.

    JDB 4,147 posts

    Hi all, now we’re back, to claim the compensation under UK261 does that go with our claim for other expenses or would that need to be logged separately as a complaint? I should imagine quite a few complaints will be received for the flight yesterday as several of the seats in business class were broken and had to be manually operated by staff and at least two people in our cabin also had no entertainment.

    There are differing views, but in a simple case like this, I would just make a single claim. On the BA site, one of the options is to make a dual claim for compensation and expenses. Keep the text simple and to the point, put all the receipts plus a list summarising them and identifying the relevance of each one.

    carousel 27 posts

    Thanks JDB, sent it all through earlier today so fingers crossed

    carousel 27 posts

    Hi Angelamc11, just out of curiosity have you submitted your claim yet. BA are saying they only cover “reasonable” hotel costs so will only cover £300 or the £1000 a night charge. We were already staying at the hotel so it’s as though we moved to an expensive hotel albeit our rate was cheaper purely based on it being an advance booking as opposed to last minute. Any help would be appreciated. I’ve pushed back to them

    meta 1,355 posts

    BA are right. It’s not like you are in Maldives with no other options that don’t require seaplane transfers, etc. £1000 a night in Tokyo, I’m sure you could have find something more reasonable.

    Having said that, there might have been expensive days. Have you checked if there were other cheaper options and can prove that £1000 a night was reasonable?

    JDB 4,147 posts

    Hi Angelamc11, just out of curiosity have you submitted your claim yet. BA are saying they only cover “reasonable” hotel costs so will only cover £300 or the £1000 a night charge. We were already staying at the hotel so it’s as though we moved to an expensive hotel albeit our rate was cheaper purely based on it being an advance booking as opposed to last minute. Any help would be appreciated. I’ve pushed back to them

    The legal test for expenses in UK261 cases is that they must be “necessary, appropriate and reasonable” and while staying on in your existing hotel might meet the first two tests, at £1000/night it’s unlikely to meet the third test.

    You said in your original post that the hotel was expensive without specifying the quantum; had you done so, anyone here would have told you that £1,000 was excessive, even for Tokyo and when spending other people’s money one needs to proceed with caution if one expects to be reimbursed.

    The question now is how to dig yourself out and that can only be by negotiation to get the maximum reimbursement – you won’t get any joy from CEDR/MCOL or your insurers.

    This is more difficult if the nights you are asking BA to cover were a lot more than those you paid yourself; I’m afraid that not doing a better deal with the hotel was the first error. BA’s expenses policy should operate on a per person basis rather than per couple so that’s a potential angle. Also, what were comparable rates for a four/five star hotels booked at the last minute?

    The inconvenience of the cancellation was already sufficient so BA should expect that people don’t want to add to that by moving hotels (although by moving rooms that’s a very weak argument), plus if they are going to set a limit, they need either to book them for passengers or provide proper guidelines. I’m sure you can think of many more justifications! Good luck.

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    I submitted expenses for 3 people totalling £1800. This included a hotel for 3 nights at £1000 total, and food/laundry and travel made up the additional £800. I took screenshots of hotel prices for the area we were in and I had folios to show we were spending approx £500 per night on our pre booked hotels.

    They came back offering £1000, citing I could have taken the first offered flight which was almost 5 hours earlier on the 26th. This would have been impossible though as we were in Nagano at that point and public transport would not have got us there in time. In addition, they put my son who is a minor on a different flight. So I refused these flights and the next soonest was the 29th Nov.

    I have also pushed back and got the GGL team involved, so I guess I’ll see how it pans out.

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    @JDB have I also no recourse with CEDR or insurance given my expenses are £200 per person per day, and not unreasonable?

    JDB 4,147 posts

    @JDB have I also no recourse with CEDR or insurance given my expenses are £200 per person per day, and not unreasonable?

    In respect of @carousel issue, it’s not that they have no recourse to CEDR/insurance but that they too will find £1000 night for a hotel excessive unless it can be shown it meets the tests.

    Your £1800 for three nights accommodation/food for three people seems eminently reasonable; I’m amazed they are trying to argue that case, particularly if you are GGL. The issue about refusing earlier rerouting is rather grey, but your explanation seems reasonable. I would expect BA to capitulate once pushed.

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    @JDB have I also no recourse with CEDR or insurance given my expenses are £200 per person per day, and not unreasonable?

    In respect of @carousel issue, it’s not that they have no recourse to CEDR/insurance but that they too will find £1000 night for a hotel excessive unless it can be shown it meets the tests.

    Your £1800 for three nights accommodation/food for three people seems eminently reasonable; I’m amazed they are trying to argue that case, particularly if you are GGL. The issue about refusing earlier rerouting is rather grey, but your explanation seems reasonable. I would expect BA to capitulate once pushed.

    Thank you. That sounds encouraging. I will I provide an update once received.

    AJA 1,005 posts

    @Carousel I find this attitude from BA both annoying and dispiriting. Technically Article 9 Right to care only states that passengers should be offered free of charge:
    (b) hotel accommodation in cases
    — where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary,
    or
    — where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;

    The article does not mention that there is a cost limit to the hotel so while BA may internally decide that £200 or £300 per night is reasonable it has to be proportional. Did BA offer to book you into another hotel? If not how reasonable is it to expect the passenger to move to another cheaper hotel without assistance? If you were already staying in a very expensive hotel I really can’t see why BA are so upset after the fact.

    I’d also push back and point out that Article 8 states that the airline shall offer the passenger the choice of
    (b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity
    Or
    (c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats.

    Given that initially BA only offered you a reroute in economy via Chicago and only reluctantly offered you the BA business class seats 2 nights later I’d also point out that you gave BA the opportunity to reduce costs by moving you to the earlier JAL business class flights but they said no to that claiming you’d had your one chance at rebooking.

    Therefore by initially only offering economy class flights and then refusing to book you onto the earlier JAL flights BA did not apply the regulations correctly and are consequently liable for the full extra 2 nights hotel cost you incurred.

    Lady London 1,939 posts

    I submitted expenses for 3 people totalling £1800. This included a hotel for 3 nights at £1000 total, and food/laundry and travel made up the additional £800. I took screenshots of hotel prices for the area we were in and I had folios to show we were spending approx £500 per night on our pre booked hotels.

    They came back offering £1000, citing I could have taken the first offered flight which was almost 5 hours earlier on the 26th. This would have been impossible though as we were in Nagano at that point and public transport would not have got us there in time. In addition, they put my son who is a minor on a different flight. So I refused these flights and the next soonest was the 29th Nov.

    I have also pushed back and got the GGL team involved, so I guess I’ll see how it pans out.

    Eminently reasonable, angela. BA could have had to pay a chunk more and could still have been reasonable.

    If BA wants to mess people around cancelling their flights then the least they can do is pay well- justified expenses, and yours are also reasonable.

    They have no right to demand you take a flight 5 hours earlier, the most they could get away with is either 1 or 2 hours (haven’t got the 261 text in front of me) but it’s no more than that. I’m doubtful that technically they could force you onto a different flight if it’s earlier anyway and unreasonable of them to assume people’s arrangements would let them anyway.

    Don’t budge an inch on those expenses with cheapskate British Airwsys. How dare they actually offer you less than you’ve proved you are literally cash out of pocket by, due to their cancellation. In fact, my reaction would include scouring my handbag for any other expenses I’d kindly omitted to claim, and due to this chiselling and bullying attempt by BA, mention to them I had been going to omit them but faced with this unreasonable chiselling, BA, I will now add them to the existing claim.

    At this point I’d also add a note to my compensation claim mentioning that the UK 261 regulations require this to be paid within 7 days and should all monies not be settled promptly you reserve the right to request daily interest on compensation payments for any period outstanding longer than 7 days in any further proceedings.

    I think you’ll send BA packing angela, please let us know how soon this occurs.

    meta 1,355 posts

    @Carousel I find this attitude from BA both annoying and dispiriting. Technically Article 9 Right to care only states that passengers should be offered free of charge:
    (b) hotel accommodation in cases
    — where a stay of one or more nights becomes necessary,
    or
    — where a stay additional to that intended by the passenger becomes necessary;

    The article does not mention that there is a cost limit to the hotel so while BA may internally decide that £200 or £300 per night is reasonable it has to be proportional. Did BA offer to book you into another hotel? If not how reasonable is it to expect the passenger to move to another cheaper hotel without assistance? If you were already staying in a very expensive hotel I really can’t see why BA are so upset after the fact.

    I’d also push back and point out that Article 8 states that the airline shall offer the passenger the choice of
    (b) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at the earliest opportunity
    Or
    (c) re-routing, under comparable transport conditions, to their final destination at a later date at the passenger’s convenience, subject to availability of seats.

    Given that initially BA only offered you a reroute in economy via Chicago and only reluctantly offered you the BA business class seats 2 nights later I’d also point out that you gave BA the opportunity to reduce costs by moving you to the earlier JAL business class flights but they said no to that claiming you’d had your one chance at rebooking.

    Therefore by initially only offering economy class flights and then refusing to book you onto the earlier JAL flights BA did not apply the regulations correctly and are consequently liable for the full extra 2 nights hotel cost you incurred.

    Please refer to Interpretative guidelines 2016/C 214/04. As noted many times over, the actual act is not the only and sole piece of legislation and is amended by various cases in this case the guidelines refer to McDonagh 2013 case.

    If care is nevertheless not offered even though it should have been, passengers who have had to pay for meals and refreshments, hotel accommodation, transport between the airport and place of accommodation and/or telecommunica tion services can obtain reimbursement of the expenses incurred from the air carrier, provided they were necessary, reasonable and appropriate (37).

    If a passenger reject the air carrier’s reasonable care which has to be offeredunder Article 9 and makes his or her own arrangements, the air carrier is not obliged to reimburse the expenses incurred by the passenger, unless otherwise established under national law or agreed beforehand by the air carrier and in any case, up to the amount corresponding to the aforementioned air carrier’s reasonable offer’ in order to provide equal treatment between passengers. Passengers should also retain all receipts for the expenses incurred. However, passengers do not have the right to be compensated for damage suffered because of a lack of care if they have not incurred expenses.

    In any event, passengers who feel that they are entitled to have more of their expenses reimbursed or to obtain compensation for damage suffered as a result of a delay, including expenses, retain the right to base their claims on the provisions of the Montreal Convention, as well as Article 3 of Regulation (EC) No 2027|97 and to pursue the air carrier through a national court procedure or address themselves to the competent national enforcement body. In some Member States passengers may have to address themselves to alternative dispute resolution for consumer disputes entities (see paragraph 7.3 below).

    meta 1,355 posts

    I think we can all agree that £1000 a night that @carousel proposed is a bit OTT even for an expensive city as Tokyo and that £1800 that @angelmc11 requested for three days total for three people is reasonable.

    Angelamc11 197 posts

    Thank you for for the support and clarification. I responded to their offer yesterday. I also requested they inform me if this is their final offer as I intend to use CEDR should full settlement not be forthcoming.

    @LadyLondon I will add a note tomorrow regards the 7 day timescale for payment. Unfortunately I have no extra receipts in my bag lol, as my daily expenses were documented & photographed each night in a spreadsheet.

    AJA 1,005 posts

    @meta I am not saying BA will agree to pay out. I was suggesting an argument to make to justify what they spent. It is a difficult argument for @carousel to make but having spent the money because of BA’s actions I would not settle for a low offer. That’s the same thing that you’re advising Angela.

    I find it odd that BA having cancelled a flight then failing to comply with the regulations also has the temerity suggest a rerouting in a wholly inferior cabin resulting in an argument with the passenger wishing only to fly in the booked cabin and only suggests its own flight two nights later when it could have rerouted them onto JAL (an airline it shares revenue with) in the same cabin the next day. And then it complains that the customer has spent too much money by staying an extra 2 nights in the same hotel they were already staying in.

    I agree that it would have been sensible to look for cheaper accommodation but why is that the responsibility of the customer who has been inconvenienced? BA should not abandon its inconvenienced passengers and then argue with them afterwards.

    JDB 4,147 posts

    Thank you for for the support and clarification. I responded to their offer yesterday. I also requested they inform me if this is their final offer as I intend to use CEDR should full settlement not be forthcoming.

    @LadyLondon I will add a note tomorrow regards the 7 day timescale for payment. Unfortunately I have no extra receipts in my bag lol, as my daily expenses were documented & photographed each night in a spreadsheet.

    There is no requirement on an airline to pay Article 9 expenses in seven days. Only Article 8 refunds and Article 10 downgrade reimbursements carry the seven day requirement.

    JDB 4,147 posts

    @AJA unfortunately the system doesn’t work in the way you would like it to work and over twenty years there has been considerable clarification from the guidelines and CJEU and Court of Appeal judgments.

    There is no specific accommodation or food cost limit specified by BA or the regulations but the courts have set the basis. You say that BA should be liable for some greater sum because they allegedly didn’t comply with other parts of the regulations but no adjudicator or court considers or is allowed to consider matters in that manner; they can’t order an airline to pay more Article 9 expenses because they failed to comply with another Article. The rules have to be strictly applied but you are trying to add a punitive element.

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