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  • Cdog 20 posts

    I think I know the answer here but looking for some ratification. On Saturday I missed my flight DFW/LHR due to a delayed inbound connection on AA (AUS-DFW). Flight was a single itinerary booked via BA Holidays

    Major inconvenience and I got home about 27 hours later than planned but just trying to figure out if there’s any compensation due over and above duty of care expenses for the delay period? ie is UK261 invalidated because the delay occurred with a non-EU airline, and a non-EU destination?

    Richie 1,077 posts

    AUS isn’t far from DFW, what was the planned connection time at DFW?

    Cdog 20 posts

    3 hours 10 minutes
    in reality we ended up with about 13 minutes. Ran to gate but they’d already closed the door, there were at least a dozen of us caught up

    Lady London 2,178 posts

    Far be it from me to take up space when I don’t really know this one 🙂 but my gut feeling is that as you probably suspect, UK / EU261 won’t help you as AA is not a European / UK airline.

    However you may be covered for something under Package Holiday regulations. I don’t know much about these but have a look at your confirmation / receipt of money documentation from BA Holidays and in their ts and cs as confirmed to you. I am sure that somewhere in there will be a reference to the legislation that covers what you were sold – which technically is a package holiday. BA Holidays are pretty professional and I’m sure that’s in their documentation.

    You’re looking for something in the regulations referred to, about compensation if you arrive more than, say, 12 hours late back. I think there is something but not sure what the provision is. Or a bit of googling around “UK Package Holiday Regulations” or similar.

    meta 1,465 posts

    We don’t have enough information to give advice. Which airline operated DFW to LHR?

    Cdog 20 posts

    Sorry I figured it was implied by the forum I posted in but see BA holidays confuses things

    Aus – DFW (AA) 3 hours delayed
    Dfw – LHR (BA) only option available was exact same flight 24 hours later

    BA Flyer IHG Stayer 2,391 posts

    Delay was caused by an internal US flight operated by a non UK/EU airline so is out of scope for compensation even though it connects to a BA flight.

    Duty of care coverage then comes under AAs policy and not the UK/EU regulation and this depends on the cause of the delay.

    If it was AAs fault (such as mechanical) then they should reimburse hotel and meals. If it wasn’t their fault (weather, ATC) then they don’t.

    If the latter then that would be an insurance claim.

    BA Flyer IHG Stayer 2,391 posts

    Dfw – LHR (BA) only option available was exact same flight 24 hours later

    Was that AA who rebooked you onto that?

    I’d have contacted the BA Hols Duty Office to see what other options they could have come up with.

    Richie 1,077 posts

    Sorry I figured it was implied by the forum I posted in but see BA holidays confuses things

    Aus – DFW (AA) 3 hours delayed
    Dfw – LHR (BA) only option available was exact same flight 24 hours later

    Not re-routing earlier than 24 hours really is poor.

    davefl 1,456 posts

    Since it’s the AA flight that was delayed you need to refer to this table to see what AA can provide, https://www.transportation.gov/airconsumer/airline-customer-service-dashboard but no compensation is due.

    Your travel insurance (you did have travel insurance right?) should provide an element of compensation for your overall 27 hour delay on a return journey.

    jj 560 posts

    I have absolutely no expertise in this beyond rudimentary google skills. But this case says:

    29 The Court has consistently held that a flight with one or more connections which was the subject of a single reservation constitutes a whole for the purposes of the right of passengers to compensation under Regulation No 261/2004, implying that the applicability of that regulation is to be assessed with regard to the place of the flight’s initial departure and the place of the final destination of that flight (judgment of 24 February 2022, Airhelp (Delay of re-routing flight), C‑451/20, EU:C:2022:123, paragraph 26 and the case-law cited).

    30 It follows that, since connecting flights that have been subject to a single booking must be regarded as constituting a whole for the purposes of passengers’ right to compensation provided for by Regulation No 261/2004 and since the applicability of that regulation to the passengers of those flights must be assessed in the light of the initial place of departure and the final destination of those flights, the place where a delay occurs, as the Advocate General stated in point 40 of his Opinion, has no bearing on that applicability.

    In this case, United was required to pay compensation for a delay on an internal US flight where the booking originally started in Brussels and involved a connection in Newark. It’s a post-Brexit decision and the flight was in the opposite direction, though, so I might be reading too much into it.

    I’m certainly interested to know the answer in case this ever happens to me.

    Skywalker 762 posts

    Don’t know if this helps, but see:

    https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/i18n/customer-service/support/conditions-of-carriage.jsp?locale=en_GB
    https://www.americanairlines.co.uk/i18n/customer-service/support/customer-service-plan.jsp

    – search both pages for heading “Delays Cancellations and Diversions”

    AA outlines what they will/won’t do in the event of delays/cancellations/diversions.

    JDB 4,854 posts

    @jj – as you say, the case to which you refer involved a departure from the EU and the Court had to do some quite fast talking to cover the seemingly extraterritorial application of EU law.

    There is no UK or EU precedent for journeys starting in the US on a US carrier, at least under 261. The pax may well be able to make a case for compensation under the Montreal Convention but that’s a bit complicated as it would be under 261. BA is seemingly the contracting and ticketing carrier in this case and AA is acting as their agent. US airlines are good at covering hotel costs, often paying the cost rather than on a pay and reclaim basis, but they will only pay for a fairly average hotel. The idea of compensation is complete anathema to US airlines and they are lobbying hard to avoid any sort of formalised arrangement.

    meta 1,465 posts

    I had a look at all my EC261 files. The Interpretative guidelines state the following:

    In accordance with Article 3(1)(a), passengers who missed a connection within the EU, or outside the EU with a flight coming from an airport situated in the territory of a Member State, should be entitled to compensation, if they arrived at final destination with a delay of more than three hours. Whether the carrier operating the connecting flights is an EU
    carrier or a non-EU carrier is not relevant.

    In the case of passengers departing from an airport in an non-EU country to an airport situated in the territory of a Member State as their final destination in accordance with Article 3(1)(b), with directly connecting flights operated successively by non-EU and EU carriers or by EU carriers only, the right to compensation in case of a long delay on arrival at the final destination should be assessed only in relation to the flights operated by EU carriers.

    I was previously thinking that the most significant carrier rule applies, but that’s not the case on the inbound from non-EU.

    Cdog 20 posts

    Sorry I figured it was implied by the forum I posted in but see BA holidays confuses things

    Aus – DFW (AA) 3 hours delayed
    Dfw – LHR (BA) only option available was exact same flight 24 hours later

    Not re-routing earlier than 24 hours really is poor.

    Yes it was AA that rebooked me. In their defence the only flight option I could find back quicker involved about 8 hours additional travel and an extra flight, to only get home 3 hours quicker so it wasn’t like they just dialled it in

    I had thought and hoped they would rebook me while in the air as it was obvious we weren’t making the connection, but that was a hope too far.

    We were horribly delayed taking off due to a delayed inbound (which had, had to divert to refuel, Airline’s fault as confirmed by pilot)
    but then to add insult to injury once we’d pushed back, the pilot had to burn off excess fuel for about ~30 minutes before we took off 🤦‍♂️

    Ihar 237 posts

    Well I’m confused…. My understanding was that you were covered if your travel departed or ARRIVED in a EU(UK) country. If it were 2 separate tickets then it would be different, but if it was one ticket then I don’t see why it shouldn’t apply.

    JDB 4,854 posts

    Well I’m confused…. My understanding was that you were covered if your travel departed or ARRIVED in a EU(UK) country. If it were 2 separate tickets then it would be different, but if it was one ticket then I don’t see why it shouldn’t apply.

    Because the operating carrier (AA) of the first flight is a third country carrier departing from a third country so the pax only has UK261 for the transatlantic flight as that was on BA in this case. The fact it was all on one ticket makes no difference.

    Lady London 2,178 posts

    This is why I suggested looking at the regulations covering Package Holidays which in this cse the passenger has the benefit of. Thie rules governing Package Holidays are a completely different set of rules. It would surprise me if there wasn’t something required if the transport arranged by a Holiday/Tour Operator (in this case BA Holidays) lands you back 27 hours late.

    BA Flyer IHG Stayer 2,391 posts

    The regulations whether it’s UK/EU261, Package Holidays or any of a number of consumer rights laws either here or the US can say whatever the heck they say but that can’t ever overrule the practicalities of there being no alternative flights that can get the passenger back sooner.

    Ihar 237 posts

    @JDB – It matters what the ticket is, doesn’t it?? If it’s two separate tickets (AUS-DFW and then DFW-LHR) then I agree. If it was AUS-DFW-LHR then it should be covered as EU261 defines:
    (h) “final destination” means the destination on the ticket presented at the check-in counter or, in the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight;

    See e.g. ECLI:EU:C:2020:909

    Accordingly, the Court has consistently held that a flight with one or more connections which is the subject of a single reservation constitutes a whole for the purposes of the right of passengers to compensation provided for in Regulation No 261/2004, implying that the applicability of Regulation No 261/2004 is to be assessed with regard to the place of a flight’s initial departure and the place of its final destination”

    As least that’s how I read it. Whether it was booked on a code-share may also be relevant, but IANAL.

    yonasl 987 posts

    A flight from the EU gets protection even if it includes an airline from a 3rd country.

    A flight to the EU only gets protection if a EU airline is the one that causes the delay.

    So if you flight on time to NY with BA and then AA is delayed in their connection to MIA you get compensation.

    If you fly from MIA to NY and AA is delayed you don’t. Even if you then fly with BA back to the UK.

    Most problems arise when you have a short haul EU followed by a long haul with a 3rd party (ie short flight to Turkey with Turkish Airlines followed by a long flight to Asia … will they pay if the first flight was delayed? Rules say yes but good luck chasing them)

    meta 1,465 posts

    @JDB – It matters what the ticket is, doesn’t it?? If it’s two separate tickets (AUS-DFW and then DFW-LHR) then I agree. If it was AUS-DFW-LHR then it should be covered as EU261 defines:
    (h) “final destination” means the destination on the ticket presented at the check-in counter or, in the case of directly connecting flights, the destination of the last flight;

    See e.g. ECLI:EU:C:2020:909

    Accordingly, the Court has consistently held that a flight with one or more connections which is the subject of a single reservation constitutes a whole for the purposes of the right of passengers to compensation provided for in Regulation No 261/2004, implying that the applicability of Regulation No 261/2004 is to be assessed with regard to the place of a flight’s initial departure and the place of its final destination”

    As least that’s how I read it. Whether it was booked on a code-share may also be relevant, but IANAL.

    See my post above with a quote from Interpretative Guidelines. Please read it carefully. This is based on several ECJ rulings.

    Code-share would only be relevant, covered by other rulings if the flight AUS-DFW was operated by AA on behalf of BA.

    Lady London 2,178 posts

    Not even. It’s the operating airline that determines eligibility for EU UK 261, regardless of codeshare. An AA aircraft is not operated by a UK or European airline. So if your return leg (of 1 or more flights) started from a non-UK non-Europe starting point and the flight from the starting point was on an AA aircraft, even on, say, a BA or IB codeshare, that flight is not covered by EU/ UK 261.

    If you’d been on time for the BA flight within your return and that was late or cancelled though, then I’m 80% sure you’d be covered by EU UK 261 for that. (80% as I can see how a legal argument could just about be made against).

    It’s a gap in the protection of 261 unfortunately but I think the problem is enforceability on a non EU non UK airline, of EU / UK legislation. So I suppose you could try to fall back on contract not been fulfilled by the selling party but I don’t get the impression that’s really a flier. Practically, and luckily, major airlines do rebook the rest of people’s ticket when an earlier irrop makes remaining flights on that ticket unflyable.

    Lady London 2,178 posts

    The regulations whether it’s UK/EU261, Package Holidays or any of a number of consumer rights laws either here or the US can say whatever the heck they say but that can’t ever overrule the practicalities of there being no alternative flights that can get the passenger back sooner.

    I’m thinking compensation, @BA Flyer IHG Stayer, rerouting and options that were physically available has already been dealt with.

    Ihar 237 posts

    @Lady London : please read the ruling I referred to. If it was one booking (via BA) then BA is a “community carrier” i.e. If you booked AUS-LHR with BA. Also see https://curia.europa.eu/juris/document/document.jsf?text=&docid=257491&pageIndex=0&doclang=EN&mode=req&dir=&occ=first&part=1&cid=5603798

    It is a tangled web, but is there any ruling to say you are not entitled to compensation?? I don’t but the argument that one is “covered” one way (UK-US) but not the other IF it was a single booking/connecting flight. That would contradict the “final destination” point (obv never mention that film whilst on an aircraft! 🙂 )

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