Valid chargeback reasons?

[Wollhouse]

I originally posted some of this this in response to someone asking about chargeback experiences with companies other than amex, but not sure if the question within was seen so am reposting here?

I had a five day yoga training booked at a studio in Milan in early 2020. It was booked and paid for late 2019 €400. I used my new virgin cc as I wanted to hit my welcome spend bonus. Covid hit and the training was rescheduled four different times. I rebooked flights each time and as they got cancelled was able to keep moving the flights. For the final date, the event actually took place in late nov 21, my flights were cancelled (easyJet refunded quickly). I was not legally able to enter Italy at the time due to vax status. The studio refused multiple times to refund my ticket; the event was also sold out and despite saying they would resell my ticket to someone else, the studio then refused to do so. They gave me a credit valid for one year from the date of the original event…. (Offered despite it being already 18 months after original event?) Virgin refused to chargeback stating that the event had never been “cancelled” simply “rescheduled”. I tried to argue at my time of claim with Virgin (which was before the nov event actually took place) that having been rescheduled 4 times already since 2019 I had no confidence the event would occur and surely there must be a time limit on how long a company can keep your money and kick the event out. They denied my claim. should I push back on virgin? Is their response correct re “rescheduled v cancelled”? It was almost 2 years after the original event with multiple date changes. I am wondering as a recent news article in re rescheduled events seemed to indicate that clients were entitled to full refunds, but perhaps this is UK specific? Thoughts? Thanks

• This topic was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Magic Mike]

Do you have formal terms and conditions with the supplier?

I’ve had one successful significant travel-related chargeback with VM, but that involved extensive quoting of the terms and conditions and how the supplier was ignoring these and basically “making stuff up”.

[ChrisC]

Wollhouse wrote:

For the final date, the event actually took place in late nov 21, my flights were cancelled (easyJet refunded quickly). I was not legally able to enter Italy at the time due to vax status.

That’s the killer for your claim. The event did (eventually) take place.

That your flight was cancelled and / or you weren’t able to enter Italy aren’t factors because the event took place.

In March / April 2020 when I tried to chargeback a hotel (because it was a non refundable rate) with MBNA one of the first questions they asked me was ‘is the hotel still open?’. When I responded that it was (and it was) they told me because the service was still being provided they couldn’t do a charge back. When I asked ‘even though my flights have been cancelled and I can’t enter the US?’ the response was still the same – the hotel was open and willig and able to provide me with the room.

I think the only option you now have is your travel insurance and if they will pay out because of the cancelled flights / entry issue

Which news article are you referrign to? Can you post a link to it.

[Lady London]

ChrisC wrote:

Wollhouse wrote:

For the final date, the event actually took place in late nov 21, my flights were cancelled (easyJet refunded quickly). I was not legally able to enter Italy at the time due to vax status.

That’s the killer for your claim. The event did (eventually) take place.

That your flight was cancelled and / or you weren’t able to enter Italy aren’t factors because the event took place.

In March / April 2020 when I tried to chargeback a hotel (because it was a non refundable rate) with MBNA one of the first questions they asked me was ‘is the hotel still open?’. When I responded that it was (and it was) they told me because the service was still being provided they couldn’t do a charge back. When I asked ‘even though my flights have been cancelled and I can’t enter the US?’ the response was still the same – the hotel was open and willig and able to provide me with the room.

I think the only option you now have is your travel insurance and if they will pay out because of the cancelled flights / entry issue

Which news article are you referrign to? Can you post a link to it.

ChrisC I would agree with you but I got the umpression the yoga training was rescheduled by the provider (sounds like more than once : all by the provider) and not by Wollhouse.

Provided the first date change was done by the provider and Wollhouse complained then I would say Wollhouse is correct that the service paid for was not provided. The key point being that time (ie time and date) is esssential to the service that was paid for. If Wollhouse had not turned up on the original date and later strolled up wanting the service at another time Wollhouse would have no right to this as the service was bought for a specific 5-day run of dates. This right and duty should be symmetric – if Wollhouse is required to attend on a date paid for then prrovider is equally bound to provide on that date and severity of consequences should be roughly equal on either side if not done. The service provider might have accommodated Wollhouse on another date at their own discretion but they would not have to.

However the contract may say otherwise. If it’s under UK law it would be helpful.

Then we come to the issue that particularly in Italy and France that I am aware of, during Covid those governments have stood by and let suppliers fail to provide service (such as hotels closing) and yet also fail to provide refunds.

As Virgin is a UK credit card you have Section 75 which is far more fearsome to credit card providers than chargeback. This is because chargeback is limited to the amount paid, and is solely funded back to you by the merchant that did not provide to you what you paid for.

All UK ceedit cards have s75 . s75 does 2 things (1) it makes the card provider equally liable with the merchant to provide what you purchased, or refund you. If the merchant went bust the credit card has to provide you the full refund. And (2) the credit card is also liable under s75 for some consequential losses. Such as might have been incurred during the failure, or paying a cost to sort out something a merchant failed to provide that you’d paid for even if that cost to provide is higher than what you paid.

I’d take a squizz at the contract and tell the card provider either they provide chargeback or you will request them to refund you under s75 as they are jointly liable in which case you will also consider if there are addituonal costs you should be adding to your claim to them under s75.

Be aware that card ts and cs will state a time period within which you must make a chargeback request, or for an s75 claim, calculated from the time you become aware of your loss. I’m imagining it’s only recently you’ve realised negofiation is fruitless and going to become a loss. It also sounds like from the first cancellation by the provider of the original date (at which time they probably just cancelled and weren’t even offering another specific date at that time?), Wollhouse has constantly said they would like their money back.

Let us know how it turns out but with a look at the yoga contract, the card agreement about time limits and a well reasoned demand, the card should refund one way or the other. Raise a complaint quickly if not and take them to the FOS for failing to provide your s75 rights if they still refuse and you feel your argument makes sense. I’d definitely go s75 rather than chargeback as the Italian orovider may be insolvent.

[ChrisC]

This is what wollhouse wrote in their OP (my bolding)

Covid hit and the training was rescheduled four different times. I rebooked flights each time and as they got cancelled was able to keep moving the flights. For the final date, the event actually took place in late nov 21, my flights were cancelled (easyJet refunded quickly). I was not legally able to enter Italy at the time due to vax status.

Since @wollhouse has stated they booked and rebooked flights (and I would presume hotels and other arrangments) each time the course was rescheduled it’s clear that wollhouse accepted the rescheduled dates each time the course was moved by the provider.

Virgin will have the record of the previous claims / discussion wollhouse had with them and I don’t see them budging – based on what wollhouse has posted here – either on chargeback or s75.

I really don’t see this as a CC issue but one for insurance the claim would be based on the denied entry to Italy issue but wether insurance would pay out would depend on the policy.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[ChrisC]

post seems to have vanished

at least I did a copy

This is what wollhouse wrote in their OP (my bolding)

Covid hit and the training was rescheduled four different times. I rebooked flights each time and as they got cancelled was able to keep moving the flights. For the final date, the event actually took place in late nov 21, my flights were cancelled (easyJet refunded quickly). I was not legally able to enter Italy at the time due to vax status.

Since @wollhouse has stated they booked and rebooked flights (and I would presume hotels and other arrangments) each time the course was rescheduled it’s clear that wollhouse accepted the rescheduled dates each time the course was moved by the provider.

Virgin will have the record of the previous claims / discussion wollhouse had with them and I don’t see them budging – based on what wollhouse has posted here – either on chargeback or s75.

I really don’t see this as a CC issue but one for insurance the claim would be based on the denied entry to Italy issue but wether insurance would pay out would depend on the policy.

[JDB]

As @ChrisC has said, on the facts given, you don’t have a valid basis for chargeback and exactly the same applies to s75. The yoga studio provided the course and cannot be held responsible for the cancellation of your flights or the fact you couldn’t enter Italy owing to vax status and the latter could also be an issue in the event any insurance you had that might otherwise cover the loss.