Creation Financial Services bashing

[NorthernLass]

Agreed – and I’m not sure how one would reject the refund of the annual fee anyway!

[JDB]

marks7389 wrote:

Well that’s an interesting one in its own right. My anniversary date was the 30th December and I made a conscious decision not to ask for a refund or partial refund. I had most of the year anyway and I didn’t want them to use a fee refund as an excuse not honour any of the card benefits.

As your anniversary fell after the 3 December closure date, I fear that makes it a lot more difficult than those whose anniversaries fell during the two months notice period who may have a case which Creation has, probably quite intentionally, complicated by refunding the annual fee. Unfortunately, I think it is quite difficult to argue that your account was still ‘active’ after 3 Dec, even if there was a balance outstanding at the anniversary date.

[Dace]

So, I have put in a complaint asking for my points and free night. What do I do if it is rejected? Ombudsman?

[marks7389]

JDB wrote:

As your anniversary fell after the 3 December closure date, I fear that makes it a lot more difficult than those whose anniversaries fell during the two months notice period who may have a case which Creation has, probably quite intentionally, complicated by refunding the annual fee. Unfortunately, I think it is quite difficult to argue that your account was still ‘active’ after 3 Dec, even if there was a balance outstanding at the anniversary date.

Obviously two quite different scenarios. I’d be interested to know though whether those who had a anniversary date in November have been refunded the fee relating to their 2020-2021 account year.

I don’t think Creation’s choice of language and lack of clear terms definitions helps them here, but the primary issue is really one of fairness and delivery of promised and earned benefits, rather than semantics.

The offer of a free night voucher was clearly a key selling point of the product to entice customers into applying for / retaining the card, paying the annual fee and hitting the minimum spend threshold. In doing what they have done (at least in the scenario as it applies to my case) they have retrospectively retracted that offer, resulting in cardholders paying the annual fee and meeting the spend threshold but without the promised benefit. The circumstances in which that has occurred have been instigated by Creation, wholly outside of the customer’s control. We’ll see whether the FOS agrees that is fair.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[JDB]

@marks8379 I believe the fees refunded were for those whose anniversaries fell in Aug to Nov 2021, ie those fees paid just before the closure letter or during the notice period. The previous FO decisions say that it is reaching the anniversary and paying the next fee (ie for you in Dec 2021) that would earn the voucher as well as saying that it doesn’t matter whether the customer or firm closes the account. In respect of annual fees, many cards charge an annual fee that is non-refundable whoever closes the account, although many will offer pro-rata refunds in the first few months on a goodwill basis.

[Froggee]

@JDB it does not say “and paying the fee”. It says reaching the anniversary date. And in that instance because Creation had charged the fee, the fee would not be refunded.

[Genghis]

Geoggy wrote:

JerrySignfield wrote:

Geoggy wrote:

Have still had no reply to my complaint.

I now have another issue, in that I got a refund recently for a year old transaction when this card was my main spending card and therefore have £140 credit sat on my now “inactive” account.

I messaged them to chase the complaint and to ask for my £140 but no reply.

Any advice?

Phone them up

Just did “wait times are over 60 minutes”

A refund hit my closed account last week.

Attempted to call on Monday but got a message saying 60 mins+ wait.

Emailed them asking to transfer to bank. No statement provided.

Got response today saying it will be done. Whether it will or not…

[Economist_Nearby]

JDB wrote:

@marks8379 I believe the fees refunded were for those whose anniversaries fell in Aug to Nov 2021, ie those fees paid just before the closure letter or during the notice period. The previous FO decisions say that it is reaching the anniversary and paying the next fee (ie for you in Dec 2021) that would earn the voucher as well as saying that it doesn’t matter whether the customer or firm closes the account. In respect of annual fees, many cards charge an annual fee that is non-refundable whoever closes the account, although many will offer pro-rata refunds in the first few months on a goodwill basis.

@JDB Where do we find the previous decisions that you refer to?

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[marks7389]

Froggee wrote:

@JDB it does not say “and paying the fee”. It says reaching the anniversary date. And in that instance because Creation had charged the fee, the fee would not be refunded.

Exactly. And more than that, thanks to the engagement that Rob had with Creation at the time, we know there was an accepted process for cardholders (who hadn’t cancelled prior to the anniversary date) to get the free night voucher without paying the following year’s fee.

So refunding the next year fees complicates nothing – that would not be a get-out for Creation not to award the vouchers in any way.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[marks7389]

@JDB Where do we find the previous decisions that you refer to?

You can search on the Financial Ombudsman Service website for details of previous decisions.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[Froggee]

This is the one he is referring to:

https://www.financial-ombudsman.org.uk/files/64654/DRN2242979.pdf

[JDB]

marks7389 wrote:

So refunding the next year fees complicates nothing – that would not be a get-out for Creation not to award the vouchers in any way.

As I said that was not my personal view, but that of the Ombudsman. That 2018 decision post dates the HfP article referenced which was from 2017. The FO decision is not a precedent/binding but Creation will undoubtedly point to it, so it is as well to consider your argument in light of that. As the FOS process is different to any MCOL/court procedure in that you don’t see the other side’s argument, understanding and addressing potential issues up front takes on greater importance.

[toddy]

JDB, why do you constantly keep referring to this case? You are comparing apples with pears.

The complainant wanted his fee refunded or the free night cert early. His account was active and he was clearly asking for something outside of the T&Cs.

This is completely different from a provider closing an account, thereby:
1) not giving customers the opportunity to pay the next fee to get the free night cert.
2) charging a full annual fee but not giving points earned during the notice period

[JDB]

toddy wrote:

JDB, why do you constantly keep referring to this case? You are comparing apples with pears.

The complainant wanted his fee refunded or the free night cert early. His account was active and he was clearly asking for something outside of the T&Cs.

This is completely different from a provider closing an account, thereby:
1) not giving customers the opportunity to pay the next fee to get the free night cert.
2) charging a full annual fee but not giving points earned during the notice period

I am fully aware of the circumstances of that case and that they are different, BUT the FO makes a specific determination as to what triggers the voucher which must apply to the instant cases as well. The FO says you need the £10k spend, to reach your anniversary and pay the next year’s fee – i.e he says you need all three. There are numerous Amex and Tesco cases that make that same determination when rewards are given at the anniversary rather than at the moment you reach a spend threshold as with say the BAPP.

The issue of the points earned during the notice period is a different matter. I don’t know how that will pan out; there isn’t much about the status of accounts during the notice period to go on, but I have seen some evidence that other credit card firms have acted in the same manner, but I can’t find FOS or County Court cases, but still looking.

I am explicitly not saying the FO made the right decision, but it would be unwise to ignore it and Creation will definitely rely upon it. Therefore anyone taking their case to the FO should be prepared because you need to make good arguments at the outset to persuade the Ombudsman that both Creation and that previous decision were incorrect. That is also why the issue of the refunded fees is highly significant.

There are also numerous decisions you can find on the FOS website in this type of case where the FO decides that it doesn’t matter who closes the account when people complain of being deprived of some benefit.

[marks7389]

JDB wrote:

marks7389 wrote:

So refunding the next year fees complicates nothing – that would not be a get-out for Creation not to award the vouchers in any way.

As I said that was not my personal view, but that of the Ombudsman.

As @toddy says that complaint relates to a rather different scenario. Reading between the lines I suspect the idea that another annual fee had to be paid to get the voucher came from the complainant himself (which he argued was unfair), and the Ombudsman had taken that at face value as the logical consequence of having to wait until the anniversary night.

Mr G clearly hadn’t read Rob’s article!

[JDB]

marks7389 wrote:

Mr G clearly hadn’t read Rob’s article!

I don’t think Rob’s 2017 article was wrong, but reading the terms and looking at actual outcomes, the position is slightly more nuanced. At the anniversary, Creation gives you the voucher and technically you simultaneously become liable for the next annual fee, although it did not get billed until your next statement cycle that wasn’t quite aligned. Therefore, if you jumped in quickly you could cancel, get a refund and keep the voucher. Different cards operate in different ways – Virgin+ seems to bill the next year’s fee early so you have to cancel in good time to avoid it and Amex doesn’t award the 10k PRG bonus until after the statement following your anniversary which charges the next year’s fee.

In Mr G’s case, the FO has simply taken the fact that the fee is clearly owed on the anniversary date when the voucher is earned, so the decision is not illogical even if in practice it sometimes worked slightly differently.

[Froggee]

@JDB Based upon the terms, it is not nuanced. We have (the typos are Creations!):

“4 Anniversary night voucher
On the anniversary of your account opening, so long as your account remains active, you will earn one anniversary night voucher anniversary night voucher to redeem at any IHG property, provided you make annual pPurchases totalling a minimum of £10,000. Annual purchases are calculated from your account opening date to the day before the first anniversary, and thereafter on an annual basis. This offer is subject to your IHG Rewards Club Premium Credit Card account remaining in good order.

5 Account fee
Your IHG Rewards Premium Credit Card carries an annual fee of £99, which is applied to your account in the first statement period, and annually thereafter. The annual fee is payable in full in the month it is applied to your account, and if not settled in full by the due date, will attract interest at your standard purchases rate.”

— — — — — — — — —

It is very clear that you do not become liable for the annual fee simultaneously on being given the voucher by Creation. These are two separate and unrelated clauses. You earn the anniversary voucher on a specific date and it is Creations obligation to apply it to your IHG account should your account be active and in good order (undefined) on that date.

The fee does not become payable on the anniversary date but in the month following that anniversary. That fee is payable in full in the month it is applied to your account. If the fee is not applied to your account by Creation then it is not payable. Therefore the trigger for the free voucher is an active account at the anniversary and the trigger for the annual fee is Creation applying that annual fee. These are very different things.

I know @JDB you take umbrage at being called a Creation shill but if I had £1 for every time you highlighted the FOS case (which reflects a different situation) and say that therefore people are not entitled to their vouchers I would have at least the £99 annual fee (yes I exaggerate)… The terms and conditions are in black and white. The anniversary voucher is entirely unrelated to the fee being paid. Period.

[Sean Mc]

Sometimes I find this @JDB bashing a bit tiresome.

@JDB has correctly pointed out that (however perverse it may seem to people) there is a case on which FOS have opined where creation have successfully argued that paragraphs 4 and 5 above are linked when considering the issuance of a free night certificate.

Does anyone have an example of a case where the claimant has successfully argued they are not linked?

I think it is correct to say be mindful of that fact (however perverse it may seem) when thinking you have a slam dunk case.

[JDB]

@Froggee – when embarking on any complaint, it is as well to anticipate and understand the other side’s argument. This can only help make your case stronger. Many have suggested that it is an open and shut case but it is not, so any decent FOS or MCOL submissions should address this. That is how you might win. How providing ideas in that respect makes me a Creation ‘shill’ is a mystery to me.

Re the fee, your interpretation implies that there is a short period each year when no fee is payable/owed which can’t really be the intention of the wording, but it is poorly drafted (even excluding the typos).

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[Rui N.]

Sean Mc wrote:

@JDB has correctly pointed out that (however perverse it may seem to people) there is a case on which FOS have opined where creation have successfully argued that paragraphs 4 and 5 above are linked when considering the issuance of a free night certificate.

That decision doesn’t mention paragraph 5 at all, so no such linkage had been shown. The only terms cited are about paragraph 4 and the annual fee is mentioned without linking to any terms.
In any case, like it has been said 100 times, the case is quite different from one where the card is closed for “business reasons” unilaterally. In these cases, the FOS will have to decide if a financial company can take a customer’s money promising something in a few months and then before those months are up simply decide to close the account, keep the money and not provide what it had promised. A case where a client wants the free night before it is due per the terms is irrelevant. This is about Creation’s actions, not the clients’.

(I think that if Mr G had waited before complaining he would have realised that the anniversary night might have posted before the annual fee and he could have cancelled the card in the meantime.)

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[JDB]

@Rui N – I’m not sure what you are reading to say the FO makes no linkage between anniversary and fee. The decision states:-

“The terms said:
“On the anniversary of your account opening. So long as your account remains active. You will earn one free night voucher … provided you make annual purchases totalling a minimum of £10,000”.
So under this scheme Mr G wouldn’t receive a free night until the year was up and he’d paid a new annual fee. I can understand that Mr G may have expected the terms provided by the old provider to be the same as those offered by the new provider but I can’t see that was guaranteed or promised and as such I don’t think there’s evidence that Mr G was misled.” [my emphasis].

In respect of the ‘business decision’ there are countless decisions that say that it makes no difference who closes the account or why. Other credit cards, including Amex, have successfully defended this.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[Rui N.]

Go read my post again. I did not say such thing.

[JDB]

Rui N. wrote:

Go read my post again. I did not say such thing.

Your post said “so no such linkage had been shown”. The linkage is however, quite explicit even if it doesn’t mention the paragraph numbers. The decision says (and upholds Creation’s position) – “Mr G wouldn’t receive a free night until the year was up and he’d paid a new annual fee”

The “and” word is your clue for the linkage.

If you are vaguely serious about making good submissions, why would you ignore this rather than address it? Creation will rely upon it, so you need to debunk it rather than pretend it doesn’t exist.

[Rui N.]

Good lord. Go read again and see what that “linkage” was about in my post (and the post that I cited). Hint: it’s about a word starting with a “T”. The only section mentioned in the FOS related to that “T” word is about the anniversary night. Full stop. If the FOS would have wanted to make a linkage with paragraph 5 they would have said so. They didn’t. (I know, I know, now you’ll say that we have to read between the lines, we know the drill.)

I don’t know what is this “you” you talk about. Certainly it is not me, as I never had a fee-paying Creation card.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .

[Aston100]

Got an email last week asking for more time, the same one everyone else is getting.
At the weekend I received a letter with the same date as the email, but this contains their final decision.
Left hand and right hand not in sync.

The letter is pretty much the same as everyone elses final decision letter, except mine initially acknowledges I was after the points I had earnt, but concludes by telling me I won’t be getting my £99 annual fee.
Odd thing is, I didn’t ask for the annual fee to be refunded because guess what? I had the white (fee free) card and they know it… Literally I had made no reference to an annual fee at any point.

Bunch of clowns.

So it’s off to the FOS I go.
Can anyone confirm whether you can go to MCOL for something that may be viewed as intangible? The points must have a cash value since IHG sell them.

Thanks.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 9 months ago by .