Forums › Payment cards › Other payment cards › Creation Financial Services bashing
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I’m not sure why nobody has suggested making them an offer to settle, probably on a without prejudice basis in response to their letter rejecting a complaint, but seemingly also not closing the door.
I think they’ve made it quite clear that their answer is “no”!
Of course their answer is “no”, but in the letters I have seen they offer a number to discuss their response and the vagueness positively invites a response. I have been round this block just a few times; there is almost always scope to do a deal. There is ‘litigation risk’ for both parties. In this specific instance I think there is only a chance of it working if your anniversary was in the notice period, you don’t have an excessive number of missing points and you will accept a reasonable valuation for the voucher or the voucher. There is nothing to lose and the offer letter will be the basis of your FOS/MCOL, so no extra work. I would note also that others have reported responding (one with an admirably concise sub 200 words) to the initial “no” and at least got their £99 back, so they aren’t totally intransigent.
You might have guessed that I am highly litigious but I would always avoid actually going to court or even FOS if at all possible as otherwise the matter moves outside your control, takes a long time and the result can be very unpredictable. The FOS process all happens behind closed doors which I don’t like and even MCOL (alone real court) requires a fair bit of work to do properly and can be stressful.
I’m not sure why nobody has suggested making them an offer to settle, probably on a without prejudice basis in response to their letter rejecting a complaint, but seemingly also not closing the door.
Brilliant idea. I’ll do that. If nothing else it will be fun to see their response.
Maybe you think I’m joking, but it’s pretty standard procedure; why not at least explore the possibility of a deal, if there is a sensible price at which you would feel it was better to have the cash in hand and move on?
@JDB – I clearly set out all these things in my initial complaint to Creation, I have 37k points outstanding and value the 2 vouchers each at the cash price of the night I used my last one for, which is £770. I didn’t get charged the annual fee but would happily deduct it from any monies awarded.
I say 2 vouchers as I didn’t get one on my anniversary in October and obviously spent over £10k after the notice period.
What do you think Creation might agree to?@JDB I can assure you that I didn’t think you were joking. I suspect I’m coming at this from a slightly different angle than most though in that I consider responding to Creation’s behaviour as a hobby in its own right. Once we get into February I’ll have a lot more spare time to deal with this and will indeed write to them.
I also proposed financial compensation in lieu of the points that they said multiple times that would be transferred but never weren’t.
I’d agree with @JDB on going back to them and giving them the opportunity to “Think again”.
I had a similar situation with my complaint and they did come back with more dialogue but no offer.
My complaints were of a completely different nature though compared to the current situation and I had personal recordings of every call ever made to/from them including some rather outlandish statements from their customer service staff.
The additional dialogue certainly helped with my complaint particularly when they started contradicting themselves.
I also have a recorded conversation with someone saying that not awarding me points is not on any of their terms, it was just a “business decision”.
I also have a recorded conversation with someone saying that not awarding me points is not on any of their terms, it was just a “business decision”.
This is the bit that stuns me with the current saga with them. I can’t believe that closing that number of accounts in one go hasn’t went through a legal team to ensure that it is all above board.
All that was needed was a blurb on the letter saying something along the lines of “With immediate effect all benefits on your card are now suspended”
Did the closure letter say anything at all about being able to continue using the card?
I’m not sure why nobody has suggested making them an offer to settle, probably on a without prejudice basis in response to their letter rejecting a complaint, but seemingly also not closing the door.
I think they’ve made it quite clear that their answer is “no”!
Of course their answer is “no”, but in the letters I have seen they offer a number to discuss their response and the vagueness positively invites a response. I have been round this block just a few times; there is almost always scope to do a deal. There is ‘litigation risk’ for both parties. In this specific instance I think there is only a chance of it working if your anniversary was in the notice period, you don’t have an excessive number of missing points and you will accept a reasonable valuation for the voucher or the voucher. There is nothing to lose and the offer letter will be the basis of your FOS/MCOL, so no extra work. I would note also that others have reported responding (one with an admirably concise sub 200 words) to the initial “no” and at least got their £99 back, so they aren’t totally intransigent.
You might have guessed that I am highly litigious but I would always avoid actually going to court or even FOS if at all possible as otherwise the matter moves outside your control, takes a long time and the result can be very unpredictable. The FOS process all happens behind closed doors which I don’t like and even MCOL (alone real court) requires a fair bit of work to do properly and can be stressful.
Many moons have passed and I think JDB is right this is a good options that doesn’t really have a downside as you lose nothing by trying.
Did the closure letter say anything at all about being able to continue using the card?
Closure letter states “you will no longer be able to use your card from this date” I.e 3rd December, the closure date given in previous sentence.
To me, this clearly implies that the account functions as normal until closure. A point I have stressed with the FOS.
- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
@chrism20, exactly. If the letter said that, I would stop using the card and be done with it. And in this conversation over the phone I know that the lady was reading from something, because she said she was opening the file with information on my account and told me “it says here…”.
My letter didn’t say anything about not being able to continue using the card*, but the practical reality is that the card continued active, website and statements continued listing points earned (and website still does!), and 3 statements said that “points will be transferred”. They could have solved this with 5 min of trouble. But it would have been so much fun, I agree with Froggree!
*Letter only said account would be closed in December (1st paragraph), and that I could continue to make the minimum payment until the balance was paid off (2nd paragraph). Nothing elese.
- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
@JDB – I clearly set out all these things in my initial complaint to Creation, I have 37k points outstanding and value the 2 vouchers each at the cash price of the night I used my last one for, which is £770. I didn’t get charged the annual fee but would happily deduct it from any monies awarded.
I say 2 vouchers as I didn’t get one on my anniversary in October and obviously spent over £10k after the notice period.
What do you think Creation might agree to?Asking for two vouchers makes your case a lot more complicated. I don’t know what the magic number is or even if there is one at all, but I believe you would need to compromise significantly on your putative valuation. However it may have been redeemed in the past or might be in the future, the voucher has its own T&Cs and limitations and awarding theoretical losses is tricky. Your number is much too high, like Mr C’s £4,500 BAPP 241 valuation. I don’t believe the FOS or Court can order the firm to give you a voucher, but the firm could still do so.
That said, I would anyway write along the lines – I note the contents of your letter of xx Dec, purporting to be a (delayed) response to my complaint dated x. However, the letter fails to provide any reasoning for withholding the two anniversary night vouchers I earned prior to the closure of my account and you failed to address the withheld points at all. That is not a complaint response that complies with FCA requirements. You have no lawful basis for withholding my benefits validly earned while my card was ‘active’ per the OED definition of that word. Your failure to provide my agreed benefits and/or any warning in your notice dated xxx that you might do so and your mishandling of my complaint fail to meet the FCA’s ‘fairness’ and ‘due skill, care and diligence’ principles in addition to the obvious breaches of contract. Your failure to provide any reasoning/justification whatsoever can only mean that either a) you have no valid reasons or that b) you are intending to ambush me with grounds later, something that can only be intended to stymie or delay any future claim to the FOS or County Court; neither is acceptable. Please provide, within 14 days (i.e. no later than 4pm on xxx) either confirmation that you will promptly provide all the benefits previously requested, or a properly reasoned final decision letter. I reserve the right to refer to this letter on any question of costs or compensation.
[Make sure it is escalated and actually received at that level, put proper paras and consider if you want to make them an offer, without prejudice to pursuing the full sum. One reason for the offer is that if they just acquiesced and paid you in full, they would almost certainly have to offer it to everyone whereas they can make an ex gratia settlement specific to you/your circumstances. You can add more, but keep it simple]
- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
FOS complaint in. Now to wait 12 months…..
Thanks @JDB, that is helpful. I still can’t see that they can quibble over the value of the free night voucher, however. If the terms specified that the value could be used to book a room up to a certain value (e.g. £250) that would be different, but there’s no limit on the cost of the room it can be redeemed for.
Thanks @JDB, that is helpful. I still can’t see that they can quibble over the value of the free night voucher, however. If the terms specified that the value could be used to book a room up to a certain value (e.g. £250) that would be different, but there’s no limit on the cost of the room it can be redeemed for.
I know what you are saying, but the ‘loss’ is entirely hypothetical; the sum you are claiming is not compensation for a loss you have actually suffered. It then needs to be discounted for the various limitations of the voucher. I fear £750 is rather fanciful.
I am not sure if this is a good idea or if Creation will have the sense and organisation set up to treat any such approach as reasonable.
To safeguard my options I’d head anything I wrote with an underlined “Without Prejudice” at the top. I’d also open any conversation with “I am having this conversation with you Without Prejudice” and ensure they agree.
Your value of a free night is your own valuation as your contract with Creation is an individual contract. Therefore if someone has sound proof of what they will use their free night voucher for,such as stay in that location regularly or previously, flights booked, adjacent nights booked etc, then a reasonable cash equivalent (could be averaged, say, from a selection of rates at various times to show you’re being reasonable) would be my starting value. It being a high value if I can point to this being somewhere I would reasonably stay, and the more similar previous stays or existing plans the better, would not mean I’d present a lower value as I don’t have to.
If you accept a settlement then you won’t be able to demand more later. Not even if Creation’s Directors end up personally liable,they are sent to prison, and every cardholder gets a much higher settlement. For the wheels of FOS and court to get these unfair practices and contract terms outlawed on a general basis, following a pattern of complaints judged individually in which unfair or illegal actions are found, will take a long, long time. Also if you do at least offer to negotiate (keeping it all without prejudice) it can add to showing how reasonable you’ve been trying to settle this.
*******the system has lost an edit to the above. Rhys please pull it out of the queue.******
Basically Litigation Risk is huge to Creation, practically zero to you. So don’t let that worry you. Creation should want to settle. I’m just not sure if they are bright enough or organised enough to do this.
I know what you are saying, but the ‘loss’ is entirely hypothetical; the sum you are claiming is not compensation for a loss you have actually suffered. It then needs to be discounted for the various limitations of the voucher. I fear £750 is rather fanciful.
Personally, I agree that £750 appears high.
In my FOS submission, I provided details of the previous instances when I used the free night voucher and provided an average cost.
- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
*******the system has lost an edit to the above. Rhys please pull it out of the queue.******
Basically Litigation Risk is huge to Creation, practically zero to you. So don’t let that worry you. Creation should want to settle. I’m just not sure if they are bright enough or organised enough to do this.
The litigation risk is different for the two parties. The firm will incur time and cost to defend the action, may have to pay compensation and would probably prefer not to have lots of cases at once; none of that is huge to them. For the cardholder it’s weighing the risk of accepting something now vs however you personally assess the aggro, time spent/saved and the risk of winning or losing or a Pyrrhic victory if say you were awarded say £90 for the voucher.
Why exactly is £750 high? That’s the value of the night I booked with my last free night certificate! There are plenty of more expensive hotel rooms out there as well.
Why exactly is £750 high? That’s the value of the night I booked with my last free night certificate! There are plenty of more expensive hotel rooms out there as well.
Well, it certainly might come as a surprise to Creation that withholding the cert could incur such a loss. Nonetheless, if you can demonstrate you’ve done it before, and were planning to do so again and the opportunity can be shown to be there, then why not?
My claim is for the value of a night at The George, which is where I’m going next. Valuation on previous certificate redemptions would be similar — a couple of hundred pounds.
Why exactly is £750 high? That’s the value of the night I booked with my last free night certificate! There are plenty of more expensive hotel rooms out there as well.
Well, it certainly might come as a surprise to Creation that withholding the cert could incur such a loss. Nonetheless, if you can demonstrate you’ve done it before, and were planning to do so again and the opportunity can be shown to be there, then why not?
My claim is for the value of a night at The George, which is where I’m going next. Valuation on previous certificate redemptions would be similar — a couple of hundred pounds.
I don’t know how much Creation pays IHG for the vouchers but I suspect there’s a large amount of potential arbitrage in it, with IHG happy to take a hit in some cases (or perhaps more likely have the hotels take a hit) for the upside of brand engagement, having people pay for more nights on a stay they may otherwise have made elsewhere, low value redemptions and cases where the vouchers never get used at all.
I’ve not attempted to put a value on mine as yet, partly because I’m not currently in a position where I can evidence the value I would have got from it. However I expect to able to show later in the year details of a completed night’s stay where I could have used the voucher if I’d had it, and the cash price for that night. In the meantime I’m asking for the voucher to be honoured should my FOS complaint be upheld, which would almost certainly work out cheaper for Creation. Happy to let that run for now – if it comes to taking action through MCOL I’ll have a valuation for it by that point.
Thinking about it, to head off Creation telling the Ombudsman and/or the judge, the cash value of your night might be £££ that you’ve provided reasonable evidencw of your plans to use it for….to head off Creation trying to say ah supply of nights is limited so actually value not achievable, if you’ve got any spare IHG points it could just be worth booking a cancellable reward night at the sort of hotel you’d use the free night that’s due to you and produce that as an example to prove these nights are bookable at these kibds of rates if you’ve not got other evidence.
For UK IHG cardholders the points cost of the free night isn’t capped. (It was, in the US.) So this should work to head off objections. You might even just print out hotel’s cash and points values for a few sample nights useful to produce. Even if you don’t have the points to book due to Creatiob not having credited the free night and points due, to your card :-).
With a bit of luck, a few claims for cash value like this and Creation will work out how much cheaper it would have been for them to have behaved fairly and paid to cardholders the points and free nights they earned, in the first pkace.
Thinking about it, to head off Creation telling the Ombudsman and/or the judge, the cash value of your night might be £££ that you’ve provided reasonable evidencw of your plans to use it for….to head off Creation trying to say ah supply of nights is limited so actually value not achievable, if you’ve got any spare IHG points it could just be worth booking a cancellable reward night at the sort of hotel you’d use the free night that’s due to you and produce that as an example to prove these nights are bookable at these kibds of rates if you’ve not got other evidence.
For UK IHG cardholders the points cost of the free night isn’t capped. (It was, in the US.) So this should work to head off objections. You might even just print out hotel’s cash and points values for a few sample nights useful to produce. Even if you don’t have the points to book due to Creation not having credited the free night and points due, to your card :-).
With a bit of luck, a few claims for cash value like this and Creation will work out how much cheaper it would have been for them to have behaved fairly and paid to cardholders the points and free nights they earned, in the first place.
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