Just been downgraded from Club to Premium. Advice please?

[sonicoid]

Morning all, just sat in the BA Dubai lounge. Informed at check-in that we have been downgraded from Club World to premiu economy on our return Dubai to Heathrow flight booked on Avios and paid seat selection. We are being met at the gate with a compensation form apparently. Just wanted to check what we are entitled to in terms of compensation. Also, wife has vegan meal ordered. Will this flow through to premium economy? What service can we expect on board. Thanks in advance.

[AndyGWP]

Does this help?
https://www.headforpoints.com/2020/08/13/british-airways-first-class-downgrade/

[sonicoid]

Thanks. Perfect. Well not perfect. Have a disabled wife who will be be in pain for days if she can’t lie flat on a long flight. Appreciate the link.

[ChrisBCN]

sonicoid wrote:

Have a disabled wife who will be be in pain for days if she can’t lie flat on a long flight

You could go and explain this to the person on the desk in the lounge – there is a small possibility that they could downgrade somebody else and put you back in club.

[ChrisC]

sonicoid wrote:

Thanks. Perfect. Well not perfect. Have a disabled wife who will be be in pain for days if she can’t lie flat on a long flight. Appreciate the link.

More for future reference but if your wife has a medically documented disability where she needs a lie flat seat then contact BA special services team who will be able to allocate you free seats in the cabin.

I’ve never seen reports of BA down grading such a booking.

They’d likely want some evidence like a doctors letter or similar but it’s not an overly intrusive process from what I’ve been told.

As to the compensation side it will will be reimbursement of 75% of the cost of that leg of the trip. Seat reservation fees should also be refunded at 100%.

[NorthernLass]

Just wondering in this instance what would happen if PE were full, being a smaller cabin? Would OP get a double downgrade, or would they downgrade 2 PE passengers to WT?

[ChrisC]

NL likely a double downgrade as it’s cheaper!

[Thegasman]

That’s not the case in my experience or reflected by the more reliable/knowledgeable sources on Flyertalk. It is generally a waterfall of single cabin downgrades. They will also upgrade in preference to downgrading. Things you can do to reduce risk of a downgrade are select a seat, paid or otherwise (you may be able to get free seat selection in future if your wife is disabled) & check in online at T-24 hours or as early as possible.

If downgraded they will normally allow you to move to a later flight with availability & pay for overnight accommodation if necessary. You lose your entitlement to downgrade or delay compensation in this scenario but it sounds like it would be preferable for you. Sometimes they will offer discretionary cash as well.

You can also enquire if they have asked for volunteers to be offloaded, they are supposed to do this first before offloading anyone although if they are only downgrading then they don’t have to.

[sonicoid]

Just got back to the UK. Was downgraded from Club to PE. Passengers around us were moved and downgraded to accommodate us being bumped to PE. No offer of another flight. Staff were all shocked that disabled partner had been downgraded. They volunteered this and we didn’t prompt them. Cabin manager said he was going to report it as she shouldn’t be downgraded. She has bronze status BTW.
I am now 100% clear we were downgraded because we paid with Avios. I’m sure that the only other option is because she has a disability. We booked as soon as flight opened. Paid for seats the same day and checked in online as soon as check in opened. We were also first to check bags at airport. Everyone we spoke to said BA London made the call and they use an algorithm.
As others have said recently, Avios bookings are cheaper to bump and I’m now sure they downgrade these first if required.
Thanks everyone. Will update you when I receive a compensation offer.

[TGLoyalty]

Not sure how Avios flight are cheaper as you’re due the full compensation even if a 2-4-1 was used. With an Avios flight it’s even clearer what the cost was for the sector aswell which isn’t always the case with cash.

Sometimes it’s just rotten luck.

[Lady London]

I am also 100% clear you were downgraded because you paid with avios.

Basically BA sold your seat to a revenue-paying passenger.

However your wife as disabled and you as her companion should have been protected from this. I believe they are in breach of a law that says they must have due regard to your condition.

Were BA actually aware she is disabled?
Did you ask in the lounge or checkin for other options mentioning her disability? What was the reaction? This could be important. If your wife’s disbility was drawn to their attention at any time before boarding and especially if it was obvious and no other offer was made to keep her in a lie flat seat one way or another, I’ve got an idea you shouldn’t be settling just for downgrade reimbursement.

The expert on this was @Chris Heyes who was never downgraded and IIRC got a decent undisclosed sum just for having his seat moved when be pointed out to BA that BA had failed to take account of his disability as required by law in the case of disabled passengers. IIRC he mentioned the airline is not allowed to ask the nature of the disability and you don’t have to say.

A google search type in site: headforpoints.com “Chris Heyes” might bring up his posts. They were all in the Daily Chat threads that preceded this forum. I would guess from 2 years ago or a bit more, up to at least 1 year ago. @NorthernLass might be able to pinpoint the timespan better than me.

[Rob]

TGLoyalty wrote:

Not sure how Avios flight are cheaper as you’re due the full compensation even if a 2-4-1 was used. With an Avios flight it’s even clearer what the cost was for the sector aswell which isn’t always the case with cash.

Sometimes it’s just rotten luck.

It’s cheaper for 2 reasons:

1-BA will claim that the 241 second seat has no value. This has been disproven so many times at CEDR that I’m surprised they even bother any longer, but you will only be offered compensation for one ticket.

2-refunding you 75% of the Avios you used has no real cost vs refunding someone else real cash

Ironically it ends up more expensive because when you go to CEDR and win, CEDR cannot award Avios so BA has to pay you 1.6p (its Avios selling price) x 75% of the Avios used.

We were downgraded once in Dubai. Me, my wife and daughter were put in PE. My son, who was 4 at the time, was booked into a 5-star hotel for the day (on his own) and a ticket in his name for the overnight flight was waiting for him. Flashing our two Gold cards soon got that nonsense sorted out but pathetic it had to come to that.

[TGLoyalty]

@Rob so in your own reply you dispelled the myth and why it’s not actually cheaper …

There may be a lower cash impact if you accept Avios rather than cash however they will carry the value as a liability and ultimately are liable for the full value in a future flight but now have a pissed off customer who might choose things that have real cash costs like hotels or god forbid Nectar! It’s also 75% of the Avios plus YQ right not just the Avios.

At the end of the day I don’t believe it’s anything more sinister than just top trumps. Customer value (internal score which is more than just your status) means others were more valuable customers they didn’t want to piss off and those with lower value didnt meet the other criteria ie just 2 seats in a PNR or they were in full fat J etc

[Frankie]

Rob Burgess wrote:

TGLoyalty wrote:

Not sure how Avios flight are cheaper as you’re due the full compensation even if a 2-4-1 was used. With an Avios flight it’s even clearer what the cost was for the sector aswell which isn’t always the case with cash.

Sometimes it’s just rotten luck.

It’s cheaper for 2 reasons:

1-BA will claim that the 241 second seat has no value. This has been disproven so many times at CEDR that I’m surprised they even bother any longer, but you will only be offered compensation for one ticket.

2-refunding you 75% of the Avios you used has no real cost vs refunding someone else real cash

Ironically it ends up more expensive because when you go to CEDR and win, CEDR cannot award Avios so BA has to pay you 1.6p (its Avios selling price) x 75% of the Avios used.

We were downgraded once in Dubai. Me, my wife and daughter were put in PE. My son, who was 4 at the time, was booked into a 5-star hotel for the day (on his own) and a ticket in his name for the overnight flight was waiting for him. Flashing our two Gold cards soon got that nonsense sorted out but pathetic it had to come to that.

How does one argue that the second 2 for 1 seat DOES indeed have value? I have this argument coming up soon with BA.

[Yuff]

TGLoyalty wrote:

@Rob so in your own reply you dispelled the myth and why it’s not actually cheaper …

There may be a lower cash impact if you accept Avios rather than cash however they will carry the value as a liability and ultimately are liable for the full value in a future flight but now have a pissed off customer who might choose things that have real cash costs like hotels or god forbid Nectar! It’s also 75% of the Avios plus YQ right not just the Avios.

At the end of the day I don’t believe it’s anything more sinister than just top trumps. Customer value (internal score which is more than just your status) means others were more valuable customers they didn’t want to piss off and those with lower value didnt meet the other criteria ie just 2 seats in a PNR or they were in full fat J etc

But how many people will go through the hassle of CEDR and a small claim if they are downgraded and don’t know what they are entitled to. I suspect overall it is cheaper for them to bump passengers down that have paid with a 241 in the hope that 50k Avios and £400 in taxes as opposed to the £4k per seat, they are currently selling for, is accepted.

[sonicoid]

I have given it some thought overnight and coupled with how ill the flight has made my wife I am going to complain formally to BA and ensure they pay the correct amount of compensation.
Does anyone have a link to the UK legislation which states 75% refund please and also how would I prove the cash value of a flight paid for in avios?
Finally, just to respond to some of the other helpful posts on here….
We booked assistance for our flight so BA were aware of an issue. At check-in we detailed to the check in supervisor the actual disabily and explained that we believed other pax should be bumped in this basis. He was very sympathetic but siad it was pre decided by BA London and he could do nothing to change it. He did call for the wheelchair for us. He also briefed the cabin crew who confirmed they understood the issue and disagreed with the treatment but obviously couldn’t do anything inboard.
Do, did I tell BA in advance the exact nature of my wife’s condition. No. Did I make it clear to their representatives several times before we boarded and did their representatives tell the crew. Yes they did. On that basis I believe BA would find it very difficult to argue that they were not aware that they were bumping a disabled PAX.
Ive had a quick look at CEDR as from your helpful posts I’m not sure BA will offer the correct compensation. Thanks

[JDB]

@sonicoid – I’m really sorry to hear about what BA did, it’s unacceptable and simply shouldn’t happen. However, getting what you might consider appropriate compensation is more complicated. UK261 will give you the 75% downgrade compensation on the Avios and BA surcharge element (not taxes or disbursed charges) and the Avios should be calculated at their purchase cost – 1.6p or so. In respect of the treatment of your wife, selection for downgrade, UK261 doesn’t really help as although it says “persons with reduced mobility” should be given priority, that is the extent of it – no specific penalty or compensation for failure to comply. Thus, you can’t take that aspect to MCOL and for CEDR, a bit tricky to put a monetary value or pin a specific issue. You may have a claim under the Equality Act 2010 – I don’t know if there is any charity or advice group your wife has that can help in this regard, as unfortunately others will have experienced similar failure to allow for her circumstances (and it is probably that more than discrimination, although it may be a narrow line).

For a serious successful claim, you will need some independent medical evidence of how ill BA’s treatment made her, and how it was the different seat rather than being stuck on a long flight. BA might respond saying that as they were not fully apprised in advance (as you state) they simply could not make the necessary allowances at the time the downgrade decision was made and that on the ground staff could not be expected to change that decision in the timeframe and without a medical certification. I’m not sure what you are thinking of in the way of compensation but sadly/realistically I think it is more likely to be in the ‘gesture of goodwill’ range than anything too meaningful.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[Paul]

So the targeting of Avios tickets for downgrade continues.
You just cannot trust BA

[JDB]

Paul wrote:

So the targeting of Avios tickets for downgrade continues.
You just cannot trust BA

I really don’t think there is a lot of evidence for that; we would be seeing it on here much more frequently if it were the case. Also, a gold card holder on an Avios booking quite likely won’t get downgraded – there is an overall (secret) selection process in which Avios bookings may be a factor, but there are many others as well.

[Mouse]

As JDB says it could be quite tricky making a claim in relation specifically to the disability element of the story, but it sounds like the kind of story that a consumer rights journalist at one of the national newspapers might like to pick up, which might be a good back door to get BA to compensate you properly.

[dougzz99]

There’s general happiness that BA guarantee Avios availability on every flight. I think it’s probably fair to say that in general BA’s availability of reward seats is very good. So, on any flight there are a number of people travelling on reward flights.

When someone on a reward flight is downgraded, how does that become evidence of targeting reward bookings?

Outside of a very small team within BA no one knows how the process determines who’ll be downgraded.

[TGLoyalty]

Yuff wrote:

TGLoyalty wrote:

But how many people will go through the hassle of CEDR and a small claim if they are downgraded and don’t know what they are entitled to. I suspect overall it is cheaper for them to bump passengers down that have paid with a 241 in the hope that 50k Avios and £400 in taxes as opposed to the £4k per seat, they are currently selling for, is accepted.

No passenger in their right mind should accept it and I believe most would seek advice online and see they have a case via CEDR/MCOL.

I’m surprised they continue to use this line when they know they will lose at CEDR/MCOL – the final deadlock letter/email is written knowing it’ll fail and CEDR should just decline to accept them.

No one has actually paid £10k to fly business to Dubai so you 50k + £400 vs £4K is well off.

It’s more like – 35k to 45k and £200 per seat vs £700-800.

[slidey]

Imo you only have to look at twitter when theres mass delays to see how few ppl know what theyre actually entitled to and probably wouldnt exprect the airlines to be hiding the truth then theyre told all they can have is a reroute and a bag of chips.

[marks7389]

Rob Burgess wrote:

1-BA will claim that the 241 second seat has no value. This has been disproven so many times at CEDR that I’m surprised they even bother any longer, but you will only be offered compensation for one ticket.

@Rob, so what was the CEDR decision in those cases? To refund 75% of the Avios (at 1.6p each) and 75% of the YQ for both seats for the downgraded sector, i.e. to treat it as though full Avios had been paid for both seats?

[Tom2]

marks7389 wrote:

Rob Burgess wrote:

1-BA will claim that the 241 second seat has no value. This has been disproven so many times at CEDR that I’m surprised they even bother any longer, but you will only be offered compensation for one ticket.

@Rob, so what was the CEDR decision in those cases? To refund 75% of the Avios (at 1.6p each) and 75% of the YQ for both seats for the downgraded sector, i.e. to treat it as though full Avios had been paid for both seats?

Exactly that.