Creation Financial Services bashing

[Lady London]

To be clear, Yes the terms allow Creation to terminate your use of the card without cause (and I believe those terms are in a statute same as their obligation to inform you you can go to FOS if you are not satisfied with their handling of your complaint). So your point is you accept they can terminate it, but you want earned points and free night to be paid out.

[JDB]

Lady London wrote:

To be clear, Yes the terms allow Creation to terminate your use of the card without cause (and I believe those terms are in a statute same as their obligation to inform you you can go to FOS if you are not satisfied with their handling of your complaint). So your point is you accept they can terminate it, but you want earned points and free night to be paid out.

The free night is called the “Anniversary night voucher” in the terms so trying to call it something else doesn’t really advance anyone’s case. Amex has the anniversary spend based bonus on the PRG and Tesco had one on the Premium Plus card; neither pays/paid out if the card was cancelled by either party prior to the anniversary even if the spend threshold was reached before cancellation.

[marks7389]

Lady London wrote:

Marks7389 I suggest you stop referring to it as your anniversary night. Just call it your free night, everywhere.

That’s what it is called in the Terms and Conditions of course… However I was thinking about how the card was marketed and you’re right it was sold as simply a free night voucher “if you spend at least £10,000 every year by your account anniversary”.

web.archive.org can be used to access the marketing page as published in 2019 – my attempt to post a link though has dropped into moderation again so it may appear in due course, or not 🙂

• This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .

[JDB]

That’s what it is called in the Terms and Conditions of course… However I was thinking about how the card was marketed and you’re right it was sold as simply a free night voucher “if you spend at least £10,000 every year by your account anniversary”.

web.archive.org can be used to access the marketing page as published in 2019 – my attempt to post a link though has dropped into moderation again so it may appear in due course, or not 🙂
[/quote]

The terms will always supersede the marketing materials which are sort of, by definition, shorthand unless of course they promise something diametrically different which I don’t think they do. I think it is clear that unlike the BA Amex voucher that is awarded when you hit the spend threshold, the IHG voucher, Amex PRG 10k bonus etc. are only awarded at anniversary. It is very difficult for those whose anniversaries fall say Jan-Sep/Oct to succeed here. Previous cases don’t seem to draw any distinction as to who closes the card that causes someone not to reach their anniversary. The Sep/Oct-Dec anniversaries may have a better case, but no slam dunk. The apparently systematic absence of a response to complaints re points not awarded in the two month notice period seems significant, but not sure what the upshot is/will be!

[Lady London]

JDB wrote:

That’s what it is called in the Terms and Conditions of course… However I was thinking about how the card was marketed and you’re right it was sold as simply a free night voucher “if you spend at least £10,000 every year by your account anniversary”.

web.archive.org can be used to access the marketing page as published in 2019 – my attempt to post a link though has dropped into moderation again so it may appear in due course, or not 🙂

JDB in your submissions and in any hearing (though a hearing might not be needed) I would advise just calling it the free night and the points or the earned free night and the points. Even if the other side drags in the anniv. word I would absolutely not reinforce it psychologically by repeating it.

The standard of clarity if a consumer is being offered something, has to be higher than when a business if offered it. We need the FOS to agree that Creation failed to make it clear that they could unilaterally terminate without any fault on the part of the consumer and that if Creation did this then all free nights and points earned would be forfeit. This was not made clear. Additionally Creation has also discontunued crediting points and earned free nights during the 60 day notice period required by the contract for closure or change of terms. That is particularly amateurish as there’s nothing in the contract that says this. It makes it look as though Creation is not intending to fulfill its promises not just on this, but goes towards Creation being unfair more generally. In some cases Creation has been really foolish because they didn’t give notice.

So we need the FOS to say Creation has not behaved fairly towards consumers. I hope they.will step up and do it.

The terms will always supersede the marketing materials which are sort of, by definition, shorthand unless of course they promise something diametrically different which I don’t think they do. I think it is clear that unlike the BA Amex voucher that is awarded when you hit the spend threshold, the IHG voucher, Amex PRG 10k bonus etc. are only awarded at anniversary. It is very difficult for those whose anniversaries fall say Jan-Sep/Oct to succeed here. Previous cases don’t seem to draw any distinction as to who closes the card that causes someone not to reach their anniversary. The Sep/Oct-Dec anniversaries may have a better case, but no slam dunk. The apparently systematic absence of a response to complaints re points not awarded in the two month notice period seems significant, but not sure what the upshot is/will be![/quote]

[jj]

JDB wrote:

…The terms will always supersede the marketing materials which are sort of, by definition, shorthand unless of course they promise something diametrically different which I don’t think they do.

That is simply untrue in relation to FOS claims, as I am sure you fully know, @JDB.

FOS will look at fairness, and its principal reference point is the FCA handbook. In relation to credit card financial promotions, the requirements in CONC 3.3 are very clear: the promotion must be clear, fair and not misleading; it must be balanced, sufficient and easily understood; and it must not omit any important information. If those standards are not upheld, I would expect FOS to follow the promotion if it is clear that the consumer relied upon it.

If it is true that the contractual terms allow Creation to withhold important benefits simply by serving notice, that is important information that would need to be disclosed. The discussions in this forum are evidence that the target customer would not have expected to find that term in the small print, and the way that other card providers such as Amex behave is evidence that this is not normal market practice.

[Yorkie Aid]

I would also add to this discussion that until a few months ago, when you logged in to your account on Creation there was a spend tracker which as soon as you had exceeded £10k of spend clearly displayed the words “You have earned the Free Night” I wish I had taken a screenshot of this before they changed it. Perhaps someone has? Wouldn’t this also be a bit more fuel to the argument regardless of how the voucher is referred to in the T&Cs?

[JDB]

@jj none of what you say is incorrect, but then there is nothing misleading about the marketing materials either and you will find dozens of FOS decisions applying the FCA handbook saying firms are entitled to expect customers to read terms that give greater detail than the headlines, so the terms do prevail here. There isn’t, in law or in FCA terms, anything unfair here. It may feel unfair, but that is different. There is also nothing that isn’t easily understood. The fact that the point re anniversary benefits has been decided so many times obviously gives Creation some comfort.

[Lula]

@jdb so what sorts of “settlements” have been reached? Surely you can give at least vague details if your assertion is true

[cinereus]

memesweeper wrote:

Creation’s conduct can sound as reasonable as you or a layman might like @JDB, that doesn’t make it legal under the terms of the contract, nor does it make a legal challenge to their breach of contract baseless or otherwise likely to fail.

It’s a shame this need to be repeated over and over.

Anyone with a modicum of prior experiencing arguing under consumer rights law in an MCOL case will find this a piece of piss to win.

[youneedtobeyourself]

Putting MCOL aside and simply focussing on FOS for now there are 3 potential issues:
1. Uncredited points
2. Non issue of free night voucher on anniversary
3. The £99 annual fee

1 seems non contentious to me, if they have not credited the points I don’t see the defence.
2 would be unfair if the spend was already made on the basis that one could have put that spend elsewhere for other benefits (BA Amex for example) so from consumer point of view you have been misled.
3 what was the £99 fee for? If it was to make the card available then clearly it has not been available for the duration that the fee covered, if it was for the free night voucher on anniversary then clearly this has not been provided.

Above all of this, there appears to be a hole in the regulation around annual card fees and benefits that the regulator should resolve with clarity to card issuers.

[Lady London]

Yorkie Aid wrote:

I would also add to this discussion that until a few months ago, when you logged in to your account on Creation there was a spend tracker which as soon as you had exceeded £10k of spend clearly displayed the words “You have earned the Free Night” I wish I had taken a screenshot of this before they changed it. Perhaps someone has? Wouldn’t this also be a bit more fuel to the argument regardless of how the voucher is referred to in the T&Cs?

Yes.

[jj]

JDB wrote:

@jj none of what you say is incorrect, but then there is nothing misleading about the marketing materials

…

There isn’t, in law or in FCA terms, anything unfair here. It may feel unfair, but that is different.

Very well. You have drawn your own conclusions, but we will let FOS decide.

Fairness is not a matter of what feels right or wrong. It is determined by measuring a firm’s conduct against FCA rules and guidance, against the FCA’s principles for business, and against the TCF consumer outcomes.

I have worked in senior positions in consumer finance for decades, and I have extensive experience of dealing with both FOS and the FCA’s conduct and supervisory teams. I have never worked for an organisation that would remotely consider behaving in the way that Creation has behaved. Creation’s behaviour is egregiously far away from industry norms, and I fully expect at least some people to succeed in a claim against them.

I’m not sure what axe you are grinding as you attempt to discourage people from taking Creation to FOS. But the passage of time will determine whether your judgement or mine is correct.

[QFFlyer]

Yorkie Aid wrote:

I would also add to this discussion that until a few months ago, when you logged in to your account on Creation there was a spend tracker which as soon as you had exceeded £10k of spend clearly displayed the words “You have earned the Free Night” I wish I had taken a screenshot of this before they changed it. Perhaps someone has? Wouldn’t this also be a bit more fuel to the argument regardless of how the voucher is referred to in the T&Cs?

If you hover over the “?” next to the counter, it displays “On your account anniversary you’ll earn one free night voucher to redeem at any IHG property.”, screenshot that.

[Crafty]

Yorkie Aid wrote:

I would also add to this discussion that until a few months ago, when you logged in to your account on Creation there was a spend tracker which as soon as you had exceeded £10k of spend clearly displayed the words “You have earned the Free Night” I wish I had taken a screenshot of this before they changed it. Perhaps someone has? Wouldn’t this also be a bit more fuel to the argument regardless of how the voucher is referred to in the T&Cs?

I have this, will dig it out as and when we all need it.

[JerrySignfield]

I received a response asking for more time post dated over 2 weeks before, very strange probably another delaying tactic

[Lady London]

Although JDB was hopeful that if we gave Creation the 2 more weeks if they ask for it, as this would allow us to see their response before we write our own FOS complaint and so we could ensure we covered all of Creation’s defence points in our complaint, this doesn’t seem to have happened.

Creation is being reported to have still not responded even given the extra two weeks, or responded without any detail beyond their hide-behind wording “business reasons” (which was often what was already said by them before the 8+2 weeks complaint handling period.
Or Creation have sent replies that actually don’t er… reply, to all the points of the complaint. Some replies from Creation to people said they were responding to complaint points – that the person hadn’t actually complained about.

So Yes Jerry it looks like this is just Creation’s delaying tactic as you say. Whether it’s just a general delaying tactic, or more incompetence, or whether Creation is trying to buy time while they try to shore up their position with FOS ahead of the raft of complaints to FOS about Creation and the IHG card… who knows.

[Lady London]

JerrySignfield wrote:

I received a response asking for more time post dated over 2 weeks before, very strange probably another delaying tactic

PS Yes Creation also seem to be pre-dating things sent by post. However that comes about, whether stuff is printed with a printer date on it but doesn’t leave their building till substantially after that date, face to a consumer I would consider that lying or unfair practices by Creation whatever their internal reason.

Keep a note of all such things as it goes to Creation’s unfairness or inefficiency or if we’re lucky, bad faith in their dealings with consumers.

I rather feel I am going to end up complaining about another player in a different part of the financial services industry. They also seem to send out letters and, notably, emails substantially after they swore blind they did, and I will be including this poor practice and false claim of date sent in my complaint too.

[Lady London]

QFFlyer wrote:

Yorkie Aid wrote:

I would also add to this discussion that until a few months ago, when you logged in to your account on Creation there was a spend tracker which as soon as you had exceeded £10k of spend clearly displayed the words “You have earned the Free Night” I wish I had taken a screenshot of this before they changed it. Perhaps someone has? Wouldn’t this also be a bit more fuel to the argument regardless of how the voucher is referred to in the T&Cs?

If you hover over the “?” next to the counter, it displays “On your account anniversary you’ll earn one free night voucher to redeem at any IHG property.”, screenshot that.

No don’t screenshot that. Screenshot the earlier version that told you earlier that you’d earned it. Not sure if there is a waybackmachine that would work to retrieve the earlier version

[LostAntipod]

And just another example of Creation’s utterly contemptuous customer service, if you log onto your online account and see a message saying “your account has restricted functionality”, the phone number they show that we should ring doesnt work. There’s a recorded message on it, directing you to try another number. Don’t have a pen handy? Too bad, you missed it. So here it is – 0333 032 4215. But dont get too excited just yet.

Once you have gone thru the recorded menu on that number, you will be directed to a recorded message that says the offices are now closed, and to call back between 9-5 on monday to friday, and 9-4 on saturdays. So they should be open christmas eve, and today (monday 27th) at around 2pm, yes? well, they aren’t.

[Lady London]

LostAntipod wrote:

And just another example of Creation’s utterly contemptuous customer service, if you log onto your online account and see a message saying “your account has restricted functionality”, the phone number they show that we should ring doesnt work. There’s a recorded message on it, directing you to try another number. Don’t have a pen handy? Too bad, you missed it. So here it is – 0333 032 4215. But dont get too excited just yet.

Once you have gone thru the recorded menu on that number, you will be directed to a recorded message that says the offices are now closed, and to call back between 9-5 on monday to friday, and 9-4 on saturdays. So they should be open christmas eve, and today (monday 27th) at around 2pm, yes? well, they aren’t.

Antipod Monday 27th and Tuesday 28th this year are Public Holidays in UK. Unlike some countries, where a Public Holiday falls on weekend, as this year the 2 Public Holidays fell on Sat 25th and Sun 26th, the UK makes the following working day Mon-Fri for each, a Public Holiday instead.

So I would expect offices with a responsibility to be manned, to reopen after the Christmas Break in UK on Wed 29th.

Just to forewarn you the same will happen on New Year’s day. I believe Scotland has 2nd Jan as a Public Holiday additionally.

[cinereus]

youneedtobeyourself wrote:

Putting MCOL aside and simply focussing on FOS for now there are 3 potential issues:

I’m not sure there’s any point in focussing on FOS. 90% chance nothing will get sorted until MCOL.

[TGLoyalty]

So @JDB was it you wilko1 is referring to?

Whoever, MR X is I hope they got a huge lump of coal for Xmas.

[EwanG]

Lady London wrote:

Monday 27th and Tuesday 28th this year are Public Holidays in UK

When logged into my account (on the website) and selecting ‘Contact Us’ at the bottom of the page it clearly states their Customer Contact Team are contactable 0830 to 1730 on Bank Holidays (of which today is one). Perhaps they felt their staff were due an extra couple of days off?

[Lady London]

cinereus wrote:

youneedtobeyourself wrote:

Putting MCOL aside and simply focussing on FOS for now there are 3 potential issues:

I’m not sure there’s any point in focussing on FOS. 90% chance nothing will get sorted until MCOL.

Cinereus why do you say that?

I’ve been hoping I’ve been wrong in my dim view of the FOS.