Creation Financial Services bashing

[memesweeper]

JDB wrote:

My view in October that was shot down in flames by the majority on here, but supported by a few more experienced voices was that it was risky to assume one would get any benefits after service of the closure notice because the contractual relationship was under notice of severance. Some folded/settled, but many apparently decided to plough on until 3 Dec, essentially doing so advisedly.

I think the firm may rely on this and that it would be considered reasonable. They will likely also rely upon specific terms such as ‘open’ and ‘active’ as well as the broader points/IHG terms. In respect of points not awarded Oct-Dec, the above may apply, but I’m not sure if they will also rely upon the fact that once the erroneous past award of points was discovered, there is basically a debit on many accounts; it’s a bit of a stretch but far from impossible.

Under notice of severance is not ended. Irrelevant unless the contract has specific clauses varying the contract during the closure period.

Acting ‘advisedly’ from a comment on an Internet forum? Seriously?

Creation’s conduct can sound as reasonable as you or a layman might like @JDB, that doesn’t make it legal under the terms of the contract, nor does it make a legal challenge to their breach of contract baseless or otherwise likely to fail.

[stevenhp1987]

JDB wrote:

My view in October that was shot down in flames by the majority on here, but supported by a few more experienced voices was that it was risky to assume one would get any benefits after service of the closure notice because the contractual relationship was under notice of severance. Some folded/settled, but many apparently decided to plough on until 3 Dec, essentially doing so advisedly.

Who, exactly, settled? I’ve not heard of anyone coming to a settlement agreement with them.

Creation have no leg to stand on. If you could point to the specific clause in the T&C that allows them to avoid paying out points during the notice period then so be it. Thing is, there isn’t. As @memesweeper correctly points out they would need to vary the contract for that to happen.

It’s no different to be served notice at work. You’d still expect to get paid.

[stevenhp1987]

JDB wrote:

My view in October that was shot down in flames by the majority on here, but supported by a few more experienced voices was that it was risky to assume one would get any benefits after service of the closure notice because the contractual relationship was under notice of severance. Some folded/settled, but many apparently decided to plough on until 3 Dec, essentially doing so advisedly.

My reply fell down a black hole so here I write it again…

I’ve not heard of anyone settling?

Why would one assume we wouldn’t get any benefits after service of the closure notice because the contractual relationship was under notice of severance?

That’s absolute nonsense. It’s akin to saying if you’re served notice at work, then you stop getting paid during your notice period because it’s under notice of severance.

For any benefits to be withheld, there would have to be a variation of contract as @memesweeper has stated.

[Lady London]

Lady London wrote:

indo555 wrote:

Lady London “Even if they’d put in any notice communication to a cardholder that they planned not to award benefits such as free nights or points during the notice period, it would have to be already in the t’s and c’s that they could do this. This means it was either in ts and cs provided or readily available or ideally drawn to your attention when you took the card, or notified to you at some time with at least 60 days notice before it took effect. Otherwise even if Creation had said this in any notice given then they couldn’t not award points and count spendvtowards free nights in the 60 days notice they should have given before implementation anyway.”

Thanks for this but I have looked all through the t&C’s that I have received (the Creation ones and the ones from the IHG Rewards Club that specifically refer to the IHG card) and can find no reference to not awarding a free night or points after closure notice has been served. Do you have specific information that it is in the t&c’s? I have not received any updated t&c or any notification that t&c’s have been updated.

I also have all the materials that were sent out with the card – it says ‘You’ll receive a free night voucher ….’ and ‘You will be upgraded to Platinum Elite status’ and you will earn 4 IHG reward points for stays at IHG hotels and 2 points per £1 everywhere else’ My case will focus on the fact that base on these materials there was an expectation of what I would receive in return for a £99 annual fee.

Lady London wrote:

indo555 wrote:

Lady London “Even if they’d put in any notice communication to a cardholder that they planned not to award benefits such as free nights or points during the notice period, it would have to be already in the t’s and c’s that they could do this. This means it was either in ts and cs provided or readily available or ideally drawn to your attention when you took the card, or notified to you at some time with at least 60 days notice before it took effect. Otherwise even if Creation had said this in any notice given then they couldn’t not award points and count spendvtowards free nights in the 60 days notice they should have given before implementation anyway.”

Thanks for this but I have looked all through the t&C’s that I have received (the Creation ones and the ones from the IHG Rewards Club that specifically refer to the IHG card) and can find no reference to not awarding a free night or points after closure notice has been served. Do you have specific information that it is in the t&c’s? I have not received any updated t&c or any notification that t&c’s have been updated.

I also have all the materials that were sent out with the card – it says ‘You’ll receive a free night voucher ….’ and ‘You will be upgraded to Platinum Elite status’ and you will earn 4 IHG reward points for stays at IHG hotels and 2 points per £1 everywhere else’ My case will focus on the fact that base on these materials there was an expectation of what I would receive in return for a £99 annual fee.

That’s my point Indo, they didn’t.

I did you a much better reply but for the THIRD time this cr4ppy edit timeout opens edit but lost it on Save. Totally fed up Rob.

Note imv *all* you did as your part of the contract to get points and nights was spend. I’d consider the card fee just gave me use of the card (like any fee paying card) and nothing else as it avoids some problems.

[JerrySignfield]

stevenhp1987 wrote:

I’ve not heard of anyone settling?

Why would one assume we wouldn’t get any benefits after service of the closure notice because the contractual relationship was under notice of severance?

That’s absolute nonsense. It’s akin to saying if you’re served notice at work, then you stop getting paid during your notice period because it’s under notice of severance.

For any benefits to be withheld, there would have to be a variation of contract as @memesweeper has stated.

Exactly, who has settled exactly? a refund automatically for fees from August is not exactly a settled account.

Without insider knowledge I find it hard to presume there are settled accounts, who is the source of information for these accounts with a settled resolution?

[memesweeper]

JerrySignfield wrote:

Without insider knowledge I find it hard to presume there are settled accounts, who is the source of information for these accounts with a settled resolution?

That would suggest @JDB has insider knowledge from Creation? 🤣🤣🤣

[JDB]

Without insider knowledge I find it hard to presume there are settled accounts, who is the source of information for these accounts with a settled resolution?

That would suggest @JDB has insider knowledge from Creation?[/quote]

Sorry, no presumption, no insider knowledge, just empirical evidence. I’m in touch with quite a few people on this issue.

[Lady London]

Also if Creation refunded an annual fee in full spontaneously but this did include, say, a few months when you had use of the card (and not pro rata refunding the rest of the year from the end date they chose) then I would consider the excess as part of their apology for the inconvenience of the way they’ve been handling things.

I certainly wouldn’t be crediting any pro rata excess in the annual fee refund against the full points free night and part free night values owed.

[slidey]

All of this talk of settling, as far as I’m aware I dont remember anyone on the daily posts ever mentioning anything about settling (unless we are counting the ppl who got their balances zeroed as settling), so where has all this talk of settling come from? And what did they actually get if there was a settlement?

I raised a complain with them about missing points and the absence of the voucher I shouldve been due a couple of months ago, they responded summarising my complaint about only the missing voucher…

Has anyone raised a complaint about a voucher that should be due from hitting 10k spend in the current year where the current year was only a couple of months? Not sure how to approach that one. They havent refunded the incomplete years annual fee either of course.

[stevenhp1987]

JDB wrote:

Sorry, no presumption, no insider knowledge, just empirical evidence. I’m in touch with quite a few people on this issue.

And how exactly does someone settle with an organisation so blunt as Creation before even a complaint is raised?

It doesn’t sound right to me given their blatant disregard to the rules.

Anyone who called up asking about the free night/points were met with “business decision” and if you want to go further you must raise a complaint.

How on Earth would someone manage to “settle” given their poor customer service?

• This reply was modified 54 years, 12 months ago by .

[zio]

Has anyone raised a complaint about a voucher that should be due from hitting 10k spend in the current year where the current year was only a couple of months? Not sure how to approach that one. They havent refunded the incomplete years annual fee either of course.[/quote]

…

Well Dec 3 was five months into my year, and the 10k spend was done before the notice of closure.

I’m quite happy to complain that I am due a voucher out of their sorry mess. Personally I don’t see it as a particularly difficult matter to approach. As others have said, essentially I have fulfilled my part of the bargain and Creation are trying to renege on the deal after taking my money.

Their acknowledgement of my complaint suggested that I thought I was already due a voucher (which I guess is part of your complaint) so I put them right. 7 more weeks to wait for their reply, though I’m not expecting anything resembling a “settlement”.

[NorthernLass]

Slidey – same here with the the response ignoring my points balance. My year end was October so I seem to have missed that voucher by 3 weeks which I’m furious about, frankly. I’ve told them I believe I am entitled to that one plus another one for the further £10k I spent before the card was closed. Might as well go all out!

[Lady London]

I’ve mentioned this before. I’d advise your POV in complaints to be : all that was required for points and free nights, was your spend. You did the spend, as per your half of the contract, but Creation did not fulfil their part of the contract so far as points and free nights are concerned i.e. you spent, fulfilling the requirement to receive, but Creation failed to fulfil their half of the contract.

I’d view the annual fee as solely to make the card available for your use.

[SteveJ]

stevenhp1987 wrote:

And how exactly does someone settle with an organisation so blunt as Creation before even a complaint is raised?

It doesn’t sound right to me given their blatant disregard to the rules.

I actually really value JDB’s input, but this line about people “settling”, and knowing quite a few people in this situation / empirical evidence etc is just unsubstantiated.

@JDB lots of trolling going on. Bravo.

[JDB]

I actually really value JDB’s input, but this line about people “settling”, and knowing quite a few people in this situation / empirical evidence etc is just unsubstantiated.

@JDB lots of trolling going on. Bravo.[/quote]

1. Trolling not exactly my thing! 2. You appear to have conflated two sentences; while I said I am directly in touch with “quite a few people on this issue”, I didn’t say “quite a few people” had settled. I am aware of three which I don’t consider “quite a few”; there will no doubt be others 3. If people are going to make successful submissions to FOS/MCOL a greater degree of precision will be required.

[marks7389]

Just received my complaint response. As with other reports they’ve not actually responded properly to the complaint I raised:

*Refused to refund my annual fee even though I didn’t ask them to, nor did I say anything about it;
*Ignored the part of my complaint about the missing points transfers.

Still, at least they have confirmed that the closure was for business reasons and that they won’t credit my anniversary night which gives me what I need to take it forward to the FOS. Before I do that I am giving them a further opportunity to respond on the missing points, otherwise I have told them I will assume that they are also refusing to credit those as they are the anniversary night.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 12 months ago by .

[QFFlyer]

marks7389 wrote:

Just received my complaint response. As with other reports they’ve not actually responded properly to the complaint I raised:

*Refused to refund my annual fee even though I didn’t ask them to, nor did I say anything about it;
*Ignored the part of my complaint about the missing points transfers.

Still, at least they have confirmed that the closure was for business reasons and that they won’t credit my anniversary night which gives me what I need to take it forward to the FOS. Before I do that I am giving them a further opportunity to respond on the missing points, otherwise I have told them I will assume that they are also refusing to credit those as they are the anniversary night.

Also received my response overnight, addressing nothing but apologising for taking so long and inviting my to refer it to FOS if I’d like. So I’ve submitted my FOS complaint, nothing to lose at this point.

[JDB]

Lady London wrote:

I’ve mentioned this before. I’d advise your POV in complaints to be : all that was required for points and free nights, was your spend. You did the spend, as per your half of the contract, but Creation did not fulfil their part of the contract so far as points and free nights are concerned i.e. you spent, fulfilling the requirement to receive, but Creation failed to fulfil their half of the contract.

I’d view the annual fee as solely to make the card available for your use.

Your point about the annual fee is very interesting, as is Creation’s relatively recent decision to refund fees charged in the last few months, particularly in light of an FOS decision that suggests the fee is connected to the voucher. What the fee represents will need to be decided.

It made me think also that while people are saying Creation can’t do x or y because it isn’t within the terms, they are asking for a (partial) fee refund, something also not provided for in the terms!

[NorthernLass]

Well I have my Creation statement today, telling me I owe them £2.07 and that I earned 4580 points this month! All points earned since October are still with Creation, though, and not with IHG. It is making me wonder if Creation intend to treat the points differently from the free night voucher, especially in the light of JDB’s comment, above. As previously mentioned, my “resolution” letter from Creation mentioned the free night, but not the points.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 12 months ago by .

[NorthernLass]

Just to add to the above (can’t edit again), the £2.07 must be an interest charge, so Creation are clearly still happy to exercise the Ts and Cs they want to, while ignoring those they have decided don’t suit them any more!

[SteveJ]

There was “speculation” that they might transfer all the points after xx days, to avoid people buying, getting the points, then returning leaving the points in a negative balance.

Just conjecture if I recall.

[harley]

I had the white card, got a letter via snail mail this morning saying they need further time but have provided a leaflet with FOS if i wish to as 8 weeks have passed.

I will wait till the new year to see if any updates. Will defo take them to FOS if they do not solve. My 2 issues raised were no points being transferred since letter of closure and no payment of the summer promotion of 0.5pc back ( not sure if black card holders had this promotion but worth checking if you were paid back correctly on that too! )

[NorthernLass]

I can see them trying to argue that the free night certificate is based on paying the annual fee, and in many cases this has been refunded or not actually charged (though I don’t agree with this and will be taking it to the FOS), but as they have been issuing statements for 3 months now declaring that we’ve been earning points, I think they are going to have a very hard time justifying withholding them.

[Rui N.]

I also have a statement from last month “reminding me” to keep using my card because of its great benefits, including the ability to earn points in all purchases. What are they going to argue for not transferring points? “Sorry, we are incompetent!”?
Not to mention that the statement issued today clearly states “points will be added to your IHG Rewards account”

• This reply was modified 54 years, 12 months ago by .

[Lady London]

marks7389 wrote:

Just received my complaint response. As with other reports they’ve not actually responded properly to the complaint I raised:

*Refused to refund my annual fee even though I didn’t ask them to, nor did I say anything about it;
*Ignored the part of my complaint about the missing points transfers.

Still, at least they have confirmed that the closure was for business reasons and that they won’t credit my anniversary night which gives me what I need to take it forward to the FOS. Before I do that I am giving them a further opportunity to respond on the missing points, otherwise I have told them I will assume that they are also refusing to credit those as they are the anniversary night.

Marks7389 I suggest you stop referring to it as your anniversary night. Just call it your free night, everywhere.

Factually you could have earned it on the first day of your new card year. Operationally, however, Creation paid it out at the end of the year. Your point is that it was due when earned and you had fulfilled all that you were required to do for Creation to owe you the voucher which was just to spend enough.

Even though Creation would normally provide the free night at the end of the card year, for operational reasons including to ensure they only paid 1 free night in any 12 month period your contention is that it was owed as soon as earned. If Creation unilaterally terminated your use of the card prior to that operational point when they would normally pay it, your contention is that it was earned and owed. Don’t call it anniversary anything as your contention is it’s not dependent on anniversary for being earned that’s just when it was paid.

At FOS your argument is that to allow Creation anytime to decide to terminate someone’s card, whether for cause or not and thus avoid paying out nights and points for which the spend has been done is unfair. I.e. your request to the FOS is about fairness. At MCOL I believe your claim is differently based : breach of contract and supporting this, you allege Unfair Contract Terms if the terms of the contract can be used by Creation unfairly ie if the contract lets Creation get out of paying out points and free night(s) by unilaterally terminating your use of the card without cause.

There is one elephant in the room that I’m not posting as I believe Creation reads this thread. But the above and my other comments today I think should go as far as possible to neutralise the elephant.

JDB pointed out at the beginning of this that the approach at MCOL and FOS has to be different as FOS is you asking for fairness (ie FOS not just to look at the law, but at what’s unfair to you as a consumsr vs a business). Whereas at MCOL he said your claim is based on law and contract (not fairness in the first instance) and you want the promises in the contract performed by the other party(Creation) as you fulfilled the contracts terms, ie just the spend was enough and you are MCOLing to ask the judge to order Creation to pay out. Unfair Contract terms is a backup argument at MCOL I think.