Creation Financial Services bashing

[memesweeper]

I’ll post my progress and outcome … I’ve got a pile of unopened post following my holiday to get through to be sure I’ve nothing new from Crudation before hitting the MCOL button.

[JDB]

@Lady London I’m surprised you haven’t commented here re poor @Alex V who had his BAPP cancelled on two month’s notice and is not going to get his 241 voucher (that he was only £98 away from) or points during the notice period. Amex doing the same as Creation – any thoughts for people still to claim via FOS/MCOL?

[dougzz99]

JDB wrote:

@Lady London I’m surprised you haven’t commented here re poor @Alex V who had his BAPP cancelled on two month’s notice and is not going to get his 241 voucher (that he was only £98 away from) or points during the notice period. Amex doing the same as Creation – any thoughts for people still to claim via FOS/MCOL?

We have hundreds of cancelled IHG cards, and some knowledge of why, versus one report of Amex. After 6 pages of I can’t understand it, the poster mentions 6 addresses in 6 years 🤷🏻‍♂️

[JDB]

@Dougzz99 the point was re a firm’s entitlement (or otherwise) not to give vouchers or points during the two months notice period. The view seems to be that Creation is wrong, yet Amex is doing the same, and not for the first time, so I was interested in @LL’s thoughts.

[Peter K]

JDB wrote:

@Dougzz99 the point was re a firm’s entitlement (or otherwise) not to give vouchers or points during the two months notice period. The view seems to be that Creation is wrong, yet Amex is doing the same, and not for the first time, so I was interested in @LL’s thoughts.

A well documented event (creation) vs a single unsubstantiated report (an unknown person with amex), the latter with perhaps with some relevant/vital info missed out, is not an equivalent thing to consider.

The fact you try to make it so harms your credibility. I have no axe to grind with you JDB, but ‘choose your battles’ is always good advice.

[Lady London]

JDB wrote:

@Lady London I’m surprised you haven’t commented here re poor @Alex V who had his BAPP cancelled on two month’s notice and is not going to get his 241 voucher (that he was only £98 away from) or points during the notice period. Amex doing the same as Creation – any thoughts for people still to claim via FOS/MCOL?

Well JDB it never occurred to me that I could add anything to Alex V’s case.

Alex V has been getting excellent help and analysis from people who have narrowed down the possibilities here. He seems to be getting the best advice. Namely, ask Amex if they would consider awarding a voucher on a gooodwill basis as he is only less than £100 short. Then the identification by the team here that he has likely been hit by Amex paying closer attention to (or changing, esp based on consumer credit industry experience during Covid) lending criteria. Amex aooearing to be taking some extra steps to manage their exposure currently. I would guess Alex V has an excellent chance of being accepted again if he applies again in another year or two. Especially if he pays any attention he can to credit score factors.

Gut feeling that as Amex clearly has a target value of credit exposure to reduce and quite possibly some stats person has translated that into a subtarget of number of cardholders to eliminate, am guessing Amex wouldn’t agree to keep 1 card open for Alex V with no supps and, say, a ridiculously low credit limut (say £500) because he “values the continuity of the relationship”. I’d ask Amex if I was Alex V but I think Team HfP haa got it right : Amex is on a mission here.

How to distinguish Amex from Creation? Haven’t given it any thought. But off the top of my head Amex are pros. They have behaved and communicated properly. We are not hearing of massive numbers of cardholdets who are being mistreated. They have given 2 months notice in accoedance with teems anddvhaven-t just cut off and not communicated. Amex doesn”t havw operational problems (flaky core IT, poor management) such as failing to credit payments on timw and custlmer accounts being marked as out of order and posdibly the realbdamahe: potentially this being erroneously reported to credit reference agencies.

The Amex offer to customers isn’t a branded card with a core highly valuable benefit cardholders contract to be able to earn, linked to that brand (IHG and free nights for spend and month by month, IHG points which do have a high valuw to the consumers the IHG card entices to sign up as cardholdrrs it’s much morw visceral if the IHG card doesn’t pay out on its core promotion, the free night and refuses to award the monthly points for spend, than if Amex takes a while awarding points for one of their many promotions. Creation has failed to deliver their core proposition for which the user signed up and diverted spend to thw IHG card. Amex and Creation are ompletely different.

I am sure there’s morw but it’s late! Interesting question, JDB.

[dougzz99]

JDB wrote:

@Dougzz99 the point was re a firm’s entitlement (or otherwise) not to give vouchers or points during the two months notice period. The view seems to be that Creation is wrong, yet Amex is doing the same, and not for the first time, so I was interested in @LL’s thoughts.

I struggle to pass judgement when you have a single example. How many times on the net do you see someone ask for help, and then little by little as questions are asked they undo their own initial story. On the balance of anecdotes I’d say Amex have been incredibly generous over the years, failing to claim back points and vouchers following often substantial (and calculated for purpose) refunds. We’ll never be able to properly compare as we don’t have access to all the information.

[SteveJ]

I do think there is value in @JDB ‘s question here.

Either it is ok for a company to unilaterally serve two months notice and withhold card benefits paid for, or it is not. That seems to be the main question at play. The reasons behind the 2 months notice are pretty moot as the terms of the card don’t require there to be any reason at all.

– Amex in this scenario are likely to pro rata refund the fee : better than Creation in some cases
– Amex are unlikely to offer the 241 even though Alex was on track to earn it : same as Creation
– Amex stopped any more spend in the 2 month period : so the “will they transfer points earned in the notice period” question can not be answered.

Based on this, the annual fee refund and the full transfer of points earned still seem to be reasonable asks. To me the free night voucher falls into the same territory as Alex’s 241.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 11 months ago by .

[Lady London]

Lady London wrote:

JDB wrote:

@Lady London I’m surprised you haven’t commented here re poor @Alex V who had his BAPP cancelled on two month’s notice and is not going to get his 241 voucher (that he was only £98 away from) or points during the notice period. Amex doing the same as Creation – any thoughts for people still to claim via FOS/MCOL?

Well JDB it never occurred to me that I could add anything to Alex V’s case.

Alex V has been getting excellent help and analysis from people who have narrowed down the possibilities here. He seems to be getting the best advice. Namely, ask Amex if they would consider awarding a voucher on a gooodwill basis as he is only less than £100 short. Then the identification by the team here that he has likely been hit by Amex paying closer attention to (or changing, esp based on consumer credit industry experience during Covid) lending criteria. Amex appearing to be taking some extra steps to manage their exposure currently. I would guess Alex V has an excellent chance of being accepted again if he applies again in another year or two. Especially if he pays any attention he can to credit score factors.

Gut feeling that as Amex clearly has a target value of credit exposure to reduce and quite possibly some stats person has translated that into a subtarget of number of cardholders to eliminate, am guessing Amex wouldn’t agree to keep 1 card open for Alex V with no supps and, say, a ridiculously low credit limut (say £500) because he “values the continuity of the relationship”. I’d ask Amex if they would consider this if I was Alex V. But I think Team HfP haa got it right : Amex is on a ‘numbers’ mission here.

How to distinguish Amex from Creation? I hadn’t given it any thought. But off the top of my head Amex are pro’s. They have behaved and communicated properly. We are not hearing of massive numbers of cardholders who are being mistreated by Amex. They have given 2 months notice in accordance with terms and haven’t just cut cardholders off and not communicated. Amex doesn”t havw operational problems (flaky core IT, poor management) such as Creation failing to credit payments madw on timw and customer accounts being marked as out of order and possibly the real damage: potentially this being erroneously reported to credit reference agencies.

The Amex offer to customers isn’t a branded card with a core highly valuable benefit cardholders contract to be able to earn, linked to that brand (IHG and free nights for spend and month by month, IHG points which do have a high valuw to the consumers the IHG card entices to sign up as cardholdrrs it’s much morw visceral if the IHG card doesn’t pay out on its core promotion, the free night and refuses to award the monthly points for spend, than if Amex takes a while awarding points for one of their many promotions. Creation has failed to deliver their core proposition for which the user signed up and diverted spend to thw IHG card. Amex and Creation are ompletely different.

I am sure there’s morw but it’s late! Interesting question, JDB.

[JDB]

@LadyLondon – thank you. There are lots of differences in the two cases but the similarity in the two cases is that both ceased to award points/vouchers from the date of closure notification not the actual closure date. Amex gave effect to this by blocking the card immediately, effectively removing the required two months notice. That doesn’t seem better than Creation?? I agree re voucher, asking for goodwill as I and others also advised re Creation, rather than being unduly confrontational which is how a few settled and got their voucher in Oct/Nov, albeit at the same time agreeing to close the card early.

[toddy]

It’s been an interesting morning!

I received my DSAR pack from Creation (obviously well outside the statutory timescale). The huge pack of paperwork was stuffed into a totally inappropriate paper envelope – the package had split and arrived in a ‘Our sincere apologies’ plastic bag from Royal Mail. Let’s hope none of my personal info has gone astray…

The first thing I noticed was that several items of correspondence were included in this pack but were never received by me… including the response to my complaint.

Creation are upholding my complaint on the free night certificate, which obviously I am happy about.

They are not refunding the fee nor the accrued points.

The pro rata fee is only about £20 so I’m not fussed about that but I will certainly be pushing for the points (I’ll be amending my FOS submission to reflect this).

I want to be really open, to avoid misinforming others but I THINK the reason my free night certificate will be awarded is due to an error made by Creation, that is unique to my account.

I need to fully read the full pack, complaint letter etc. Once I do this, I’ll give an update.

[toddy]

JDB wrote:

@LadyLondon – thank you. There are lots of differences in the two cases but the similarity in the two cases is that both ceased to award points/vouchers from the date of closure notification not the actual closure date. Amex gave effect to this by blocking the card immediately, effectively removing the required two months notice. That doesn’t seem better than Creation?? I agree re voucher, asking for goodwill as I and others also advised re Creation, rather than being unduly confrontational which is how a few settled and got their voucher in Oct/Nov, albeit at the same time agreeing to close the card early.

There’s a whole world of difference between:
A) spend target not reached (Alex)
B) spend target reached

I accept that someone may ask for goodwill under A but fail to see how it’s “confrontational” to ask a company for more.

[JDB]

@Toddy many hadn’t reached their spend target or had anniversaries during the two months notice period so rushed to complete the target or even start a new one. While you are right about reaching/not reaching a target (a distinction that has not escaped me!) you are also talking about the difference in vouchers earned when you hit a threshold and vouchers earned only at anniversary. If the OP in the Amex case had the PRG and had already reached the £15k, he also would not have got his voucher in the scenario described.

The point was simply that Amex’s position, like Creation’s is that once they give notice of closure, all bets are off. They both adopt the position that from that point you don’t get any points, cannot reach an anniversary reward or threshold benefit. Are they both wrong?

[NorthernLass]

@JDB, I would say they are actually wrong unless there is specific provision in the Ts and Cs which allows them to do this. Do you have a link to such a condition?

[Rui N.]

Yeah, agree with NorthernLass. If what matters is the terms (like we keep hearing in this thread) and all decisions are primarily made about the terms, how exactly is what Amex does or does not relevant here? Are the terms the same?

[toddy]

JDB wrote:

The point was simply that Amex’s position, like Creation’s is that once they give notice of closure, all bets are off. They both adopt the position that from that point you don’t get any points, cannot reach an anniversary reward or threshold benefit. Are they both wrong?

Again, there’s a world of difference between one organisation allowing card members to spend (earning them income) and another who doesn’t allow further spend.

[JDB]

NorthernLass wrote:

@JDB, I would say they are actually wrong unless there is specific provision in the Ts and Cs which allows them to do this. Do you have a link to such a condition?

BAPP has a provision to stop benefits that (in full) says:- “If we close your Card Account in accordance with the Card Account Agreement, you will no longer earn Avios and any Avios that have not yet appeared on your American Express Avios balance will be forfeited. Any Avios already in your American Express Avios balance will still be transferred to your British Airways Avios balance.”

It makes no mention that this takes effect from notice of closure, rather than actual closure two months later. Both Amex and Creation are treating accounts as being closed for rewards purposes during the two months notice period; I don’t know where they both derive that position from, but Tesco also does the same thing. Amex appears also immediately to block your card for two months, something also not provided for in the terms, or ? the law.

They can’t all be making it up, but it is not in any of their terms. On the Amex terms, if you had a pending transaction prior to the notice, you also wouldn’t get those Avios which seems tough.

[Rui N.]

toddy wrote:

JDB wrote:

The point was simply that Amex’s position, like Creation’s is that once they give notice of closure, all bets are off. They both adopt the position that from that point you don’t get any points, cannot reach an anniversary reward or threshold benefit. Are they both wrong?

Again, there’s a world of difference between one organisation allowing card members to spend (earning them income) and another who doesn’t allow further spend.

And telling them explicitly that the purchases are earning points, the statements stating that the points will be transferred to IHG, and sending reminders to the client about the points-earning capability of the soon-to-be-closed cards.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 11 months ago by .

[JDB]

@Rui N I believe the statements said “points to be transferred 0”. While there are clearly differences between the situations, there are undeniable parallels and the net effect of the actions of both firms comes to pretty much the same for the customer. Whether or not that is OK in law and/or fair is another question for someone else to decide.

[toddy]

JDB wrote:

@Rui N I believe the statements said “points to be transferred 0”.

That’s incorrect.

The statement said:
IHG reward points
Earned this month: xx,000
Bonus points: 0
Points transferred: 0
Points will be added to your IHG reward account

[Rui N.]

JDB wrote:

@Rui N I believe the statements said “points to be transferred 0”. While there are clearly differences between the situations, there are undeniable parallels and the net effect of the actions of both firms comes to pretty much the same for the customer. Whether or not that is OK in law and/or fair is another question for someone else to decide.

On the first part, toddy already replied.
On the second, the other day it was ‘fairness’ in quotes and it was all about the terms, today since the argument of the terms doesn’t hold anymore in your comparison, it fair without quotes. LOL

[JDB]

@Rui N perhaps I’m stupid but I don’t understand your post. The terms don’t expressly allow Amex, Creation or Tesco to adopt the position that all rewards cease on notice of closure, but they each apply the policy, so my question was simply: are they all wrong? The fact they all treat the account as effectively not ‘active’ but also not yet closed is quite interesting and not irrelevant. On your ‘point’ re terms, it’s always about the terms! The fairness of those terms can also be tested. Where the terms are silent (e.g. no provision for pro rata fee refunds) terms need to be imputed.

[dougzz99]

I had post today for the first time in over a week. Three letters from Creation, two asking for more time and one rejecting my compalint, all dated 5th Jan.

Unlikely to proceed to FOS, but will give it some time to decide.

• This reply was modified 54 years, 11 months ago by .

[Froggee]

If I quote I get captcha’d so I can only reply but not quote. It is beyond annoying. Captcha score 0.7 today.

Hey @JDB. The card’s terms and conditions say “We may suspend your account or any feature on your account (including a supplementary card) if:
• you tell us to close your account or we tell you we are closing your account;” (and a bunch of other reasons).

Creation’s terms and conditions also allow them to do similar. Indeed they blocked my white card in this manner. But they did not block most people’s cards and contradicted their own terms and conditions. So everything BA has done is in accordance with their terms and conditions. It is highly debateable whether it is fair to block a 241 £100 short of the spend but that is a separate issue.

[JDB]

@Froggee you are right, but most here seem to disagree. In respect of blocking the card in the two months notice period, that effectively negating or rendering the notice period redundant which cannot be right??