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  • Lady London 2,140 posts

    Finally drafted my FOS complaint today for submission tomorrow.

    I’ve taken one for the team and used my insider industry knowledge to provide FOS with a 2,500 word analysis plus 6 appendices that give a detailed assessment of Creation’s behaviour against its own terms and conditions, the consumer rights act, althe FCA’s principles of business, and the FCA’s consumer outcomes.

    I have emphasised to FOS that 1,800 customers are thought to be affected and that only a tiny fraction of these will complain. I have therefore reminded FOS of its powers and of Creation’s duty under the DISP rulebook to assess the broader implications of the case for all those borrowers including non- complainants.

    We shall see. The wait will be considerable, but I cannot see how this will be treated as trivial or unimportant by the FOS.

    I completely love this!! It sounds like you’ve created a masterpiece.

    Please keep us informed.

    PS will you eventually be able to consider a price for copies?

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    @Aston100 there’s a sharkfin circling 🙂

    jj 533 posts

    Lady London, I would rather not give the Creation staff who browse these forums the benefit of advance warning of my arguments.

    But, to cut a very long story short, the central point of my argument is based around Creation’s claim, made in its final response letter to me, that it has the power to vary the terms and conditions of accounts without providing notice to cardholders. This fragment from my response sums it up quite succinctly:

    “A financial product where the provider has unlimited flexibility to vary the terms and conditions without providing notice cannot possibly be relied upon to perform as the firm has led consumers to expect… Creation’s behaviour therefore appears to be in clear and flagrant breach of Outcome 5.”

    Rui N. 855 posts

    Thanks a lot for doing this jj. Is there any way that you can send the materials you collected directly to the FCA as well? In case the FOS doesn’t do anything about them.

    jj 533 posts

    Rui N. – the normal channel is for complaints to be raised to FOS and for FOS to escalate to the FCA as required. The FCA does have a mechanism to allow direct wrongdoing to be reported, though, and the web form is here: https://www.fca.org.uk/contact/report-wrongdoing-misconduct

    My intention is first to persuade the FOS to rule in my favour. Through this forum, I will then soon discover whether Creation has applied the learnings from my case to other borrowers. If it does not do so, I will then have sufficient evidence to raise a misconduct report directly with the FCA.

    Although the process can take time, there really is no hiding place for UK financial firms that believe they can ignore the law and the FCA’s principles of business.

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    Lady London, I would rather not give the Creation staff who browse these forums the benefit of advance warning of my arguments.

    But, to cut a very long story short, the central point of my argument is based around Creation’s claim, made in its final response letter to me, that it has the power to vary the terms and conditions of accounts without providing notice to cardholders. This fragment from my response sums it up quite succinctly:

    “A financial product where the provider has unlimited flexibility to vary the terms and conditions without providing notice cannot possibly be relied upon to perform as the firm has led consumers to expect… Creation’s behaviour therefore appears to be in clear and flagrant breach of Outcome 5.”

    Clear. By “eventually”, I meant “After you’ve won”. 🙂

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    https://www.fca.org.uk/contact/report-wrongdoing-misconduct

    Although the process can take time, there really is no hiding place for UK financial firms that believe they can ignore the law and the FCA’s principles of business.

    Yaaaay!! (waves flag and spins football-supporter ratchet thing)

    jj 533 posts

    LL, assuming I win, I will absolutely share a copy.

    Harrier25 892 posts

    LL, assuming I win, I will absolutely share a copy.

    If you win we all win, jj, so the pressure’s on for you to come up trumps!

    Charles Martel 124 posts

    Finally drafted my FOS complaint today for submission tomorrow.

    I’ve taken one for the team and used my insider industry knowledge to provide FOS with a 2,500 word analysis plus 6 appendices that give a detailed assessment of Creation’s behaviour against its own terms and conditions, the consumer rights act, althe FCA’s principles of business, and the FCA’s consumer outcomes.

    I have emphasised to FOS that 1,800 customers are thought to be affected and that only a tiny fraction of these will complain. I have therefore reminded FOS of its powers and of Creation’s duty under the DISP rulebook to assess the broader implications of the case for all those borrowers including non- complainants.

    We shall see. The wait will be considerable, but I cannot see how this will be treated as trivial or unimportant by the FOS.

    Are you able to share? Its my home wort that I never get around to doing.

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    Finally drafted my FOS complaint today for submission tomorrow.

    I’ve taken one for the team and used my insider industry knowledge to provide FOS with a 2,500 word analysis plus 6 appendices that give a detailed assessment of Creation’s behaviour against its own terms and conditions, the consumer rights act, althe FCA’s principles of business, and the FCA’s consumer outcomes.

    I have emphasised to FOS that 1,800 customers are thought to be affected and that only a tiny fraction of these will complain. I have therefore reminded FOS of its powers and of Creation’s duty under the DISP rulebook to assess the broader implications of the case for all those borrowers including non- complainants.

    We shall see. The wait will be considerable, but I cannot see how this will be treated as trivial or unimportant by the FOS.

    Are you able to share? Its my home wort that I never get around to doing.

    Any sharing only after he’s won, @CharlesMartel. Creation is not operating their business to professional standards so far as we can tell, but they’ve probably got more twists and turns in the way they will argue against any complaint than a corkscrew.

    They and their friends do, however, seem to be paying attention to this thread. So there is no point feeding them any information as to the exact crafting of the comprehensive pasting they are hopefully going to get, before the FOS will hopefully do their job (not always guaranteed apparently) and land it on them.

    There will be plenty of time for others to share after an approach succeeds.

    Charles Martel 124 posts

    Finally drafted my FOS complaint today for submission tomorrow.

    I’ve taken one for the team and used my insider industry knowledge to provide FOS with a 2,500 word analysis plus 6 appendices that give a detailed assessment of Creation’s behaviour against its own terms and conditions, the consumer rights act, althe FCA’s principles of business, and the FCA’s consumer outcomes.

    I have emphasised to FOS that 1,800 customers are thought to be affected and that only a tiny fraction of these will complain. I have therefore reminded FOS of its powers and of Creation’s duty under the DISP rulebook to assess the broader implications of the case for all those borrowers including non- complainants.

    We shall see. The wait will be considerable, but I cannot see how this will be treated as trivial or unimportant by the FOS.

    Are you able to share? Its my home wort that I never get around to doing.

    Any sharing only after he’s won, @CharlesMartel. Creation is not operating their business to professional standards so far as we can tell, but they’ve probably got more twists and turns in the way they will argue against any complaint than a corkscrew.

    They and their friends do, however, seem to be paying attention to this thread. So there is no point feeding them any information as to the exact crafting of the comprehensive pasting they are hopefully going to get, before the FOS will hopefully do their job (not always guaranteed apparently) and land it on them.

    There will be plenty of time for others to share after an approach succeeds.

    Am I right in thinking we have six years from the date of our Creation final resolution letter to file a complaint with the FOS? If so would the better strategy be to wait out the early complaints and address any reasons for rejection or copy and paste successful claims?

    jj 533 posts

    No – it’s 6 months, not six years.

    NorthernLass 8,250 posts

    Forgot to upload Creation’s final response letter on one of our complaints so FOS has now referred it back to them to ask if they can resolve it! I was initially annoyed but actually it will be interesting to see what Creation’s response (if any) will be now it’s coming from the FOS.

    tw33ty 205 posts

    So, Heard- back from fos about my creation complaint about my card being closed.

    They got in touch with creation, and creations response has been………. Radio silence.

    Fos can’t get a response from them, not just my complaint, but this seems to be creations way of dealing with it, just not responding to fos in anyway to all these complaints.

    Rather childish way to act I think, but I’m not surprised tbh.

    Harrier25 892 posts

    Well, Creation may have decided to stick their heads in the sand and possibly been ill-advised to ignore FOS, but they’ll only get away with that tactic for so long before FOS start using their sharp teeth, as their rulings are legally binding and can only be challenged in a court of law.

    Really does show them up for the bunch of French cowboys that they really are. I hope the FCA in the end revoke their UK licence.

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    TBH so far as I can tell the French consumer finance industry is poor and around the 1950’s in many of its offerings, used to overcharging for not very much service, not so customer-service oriented unless they can sell products (so that bit’s reached the 1980’s), and can be inflexible until a specific law requiring them to actually provide or accept something is quoted at them.

    It’s the last bit i don’t get. French companies might have poor offerings and poor customer service but the one thing they seem to do is follow the law.

    If Creation is so manifestly not operating in accordance with consumer finance industry standards laid down by the UK authorities and has made their position worse by omitting to communicate correctly with consumers and now refusing to respond to the FOS, I can only think Creation believe they can escape the UK’s authority.

    Is Creation planning to leave the UK and hide back at home in France thinking Brexit will make it impossible for British authorities’ decisions to be enforced? Has Creation put their other lines of business up for sale or ceased taking new customers in their other lines of business like store credit cards?

    Creation cannot be stupid, so they must have a plan, surely?

    points_worrier 296 posts

    Well, Creation may have decided to stick their heads in the sand and possibly been ill-advised to ignore FOS, but they’ll only get away with that tactic for so long before FOS start using their sharp teeth, as their rulings are legally binding and can only be challenged in a court of law.

    Really does show them up for the bunch of French cowboys that they really are. I hope the FCA in the end revoke their UK licence.

    I have had a case with FOS for 9 months now against Halifax, with Halifax failing to provide any response. The FOS have been (too) obliging waiting for a response as deadline after deadline has been missed. I have asked them what they will do should Halifax fail to respond. They have said they can rule in the absence of any response, but they really try to ensure that they get a response if they can. So it will likely delay everything by 1 year if Creation ignore it. And if in that time Creation lose their licence and leave UK, you will really struggle to enforce any decision.

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    I really suspect the FOS is there to protect the UK finance industry and protecting consumers is not their prime vocation.

    There are too many instances you read about like this Halifax one where they seem far too indulgent to finance industry providers giving them extra time and apparently accepting very weak excuses or even no excuses for delays.

    Additionally I’ve seen quite a few cases reported where after pursuing a provider for years with much stress in some very clear cases of wrongdoing or omission, the FOS has ordered the provider to put the complainant into the position they should have been but awarded pathetic amounts like £75 or £250 for stress and inconvenience on top.

    As I mentioned a while back the FOS has reduced the number of free cases per year for each provider from 25 to 3, the excess being charged to the provider at £750 or so per complaint submitted. And the FOS has made a lot of people redundant so perhaps things will eventually improve.

    Would anyone be surprised if Creation is planning to evade by shutting down and walking away? If so, can their owner BNP be sanctioned ?

    Genghis 12 posts

    Finally drafted my FOS complaint today for submission tomorrow.

    I’ve taken one for the team and used my insider industry knowledge to provide FOS with a 2,500 word analysis plus 6 appendices that give a detailed assessment of Creation’s behaviour against its own terms and conditions, the consumer rights act, althe FCA’s principles of business, and the FCA’s consumer outcomes.

    I have emphasised to FOS that 1,800 customers are thought to be affected and that only a tiny fraction of these will complain. I have therefore reminded FOS of its powers and of Creation’s duty under the DISP rulebook to assess the broader implications of the case for all those borrowers including non- complainants.

    We shall see. The wait will be considerable, but I cannot see how this will be treated as trivial or unimportant by the FOS.

    Are you able to share? Its my home wort that I never get around to doing.

    Any sharing only after he’s won, @CharlesMartel. Creation is not operating their business to professional standards so far as we can tell, but they’ve probably got more twists and turns in the way they will argue against any complaint than a corkscrew.

    They and their friends do, however, seem to be paying attention to this thread. So there is no point feeding them any information as to the exact crafting of the comprehensive pasting they are hopefully going to get, before the FOS will hopefully do their job (not always guaranteed apparently) and land it on them.

    There will be plenty of time for others to share after an approach succeeds.

    Am I right in thinking we have six years from the date of our Creation final resolution letter to file a complaint with the FOS? If so would the better strategy be to wait out the early complaints and address any reasons for rejection or copy and paste successful claims?

    6 months

    Lady London 2,140 posts

    Does that mean that anyone who’s received anything Creation have called a final resolution, has to at least file something with the FOS in the form of a complaint within 6 months? If we’re waiting on early successes to replicate, how is that going to work when the FOS isn’t even getting around to allocating the first level of complaint-dealer to any case till at least 4 months after the complaint is filed? Does that mean people have to submit a complaint then supply more information later (ie what’s meanwhile been found to be fully rounded successful submission?)

    It’s really quite fortunate that so many people seem not even to have had their complaints adequately addressed by Creation, and mnay of them seem to have been ignored by Creation or received responses that appear to be to complaints not raised and do not deal with the complaints the person raised. So it would seem a good idea to carry on waiting for Creation’s response to your specific complaints then, wouldn’t it, as the 6 month clock to submit a complaint would start as soon as an answer which is both full and final, is received from Creation? Based on reports, for a lot of people, such responses have not yet been received.

    rams 224 posts

    I am still waiting for my final response from Creation. No word from them to even say anything about the delay.

    Harrier25 892 posts

    They’d be back in the bosom of mother France by now, if only they could get through the Dover traffic jam and onto a P&O Ferry! 🇫🇷 😂

    chrism20 89 posts

    Surely them choosing not to respond to the FOS is a green light to proceed with the legal route.

    Communication from the FOS stating they have given them an opportunity to respond and they haven’t taken it proves you have Gond down this route. This coupled with Creations stalling on dealing with the initial complaints, lack of communication regarding the cancellation of card benefits etc clearly demonstrates this is an organisation that is either at it or woefully incompetent.

    The FOS have had the opportunity to investigate and Creation have chosen to assist with their investigation.

    stevenhp1987 339 posts

    Does that mean that anyone who’s received anything Creation have called a final resolution, has to at least file something with the FOS in the form of a complaint within 6 months? If we’re waiting on early successes to replicate, how is that going to work when the FOS isn’t even getting around to allocating the first level of complaint-dealer to any case till at least 4 months after the complaint is filed? Does that mean people have to submit a complaint then supply more information later (ie what’s meanwhile been found to be fully rounded successful submission?)

    It’s really quite fortunate that so many people seem not even to have had their complaints adequately addressed by Creation, and mnay of them seem to have been ignored by Creation or received responses that appear to be to complaints not raised and do not deal with the complaints the person raised. So it would seem a good idea to carry on waiting for Creation’s response to your specific complaints then, wouldn’t it, as the 6 month clock to submit a complaint would start as soon as an answer which is both full and final, is received from Creation? Based on reports, for a lot of people, such responses have not yet been received.

    You have 6 months from the date of the final response to submit your complaint to FOS.

    The fact FOS may take 4 months to assign the complaint is irrelevant, so long as you submit the complaint within the 6 month period.

    I’ve never had a FOS complaint completed within 6 months, even pre-covid, so waiting for others successes just isn’t going to happen I’m afraid.

    Yes, if information comes to light you can inform your case handler. There is generally some back and forth between yourself and the company you’re complaining against. All of this going through the case handler.

    If you don’t receive a final response, then you can submit your complaint to FOS once 8 weeks have passed. I believe that’s when the 6 month timer starts.

    Even if the company agrees with your complaint, it doesn’t mean they’ll know how to fix what they promised. I once took BoS to FOS once the 6 month timer hit, despite the fact they upheld my complaint, because they failed to actually do what they promised. A took a further year or so at FOS before they figured out how to achieve it!

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