Forums › Payment cards › Other payment cards › Creation Financial Services bashing
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One notable breach that led to a lot of the closures appears to have been business use of the card.
Not heard or seen of anyone mentioning they had it closed down due to business use, seeing as there appears to be no official Creation statement, I also wonder what specific part of the terms and conditions mentions this.
One notable breach that led to a lot of the closures appears to have been business use of the card.
Not heard or seen of anyone mentioning they had it closed down due to business use, seeing as there appears to be no official Creation statement, I also wonder what specific part of the terms and conditions mentions this.
The term re business use is at 5.3 in the Creation T&Cs. There has been and probably will never be any sort of Creation ‘statement’ – why would there be?. As above, the firm doesn’t need to give any reasons for closure, but improper business use is clearly one of the reasons that applies to a fair number of people.
I think siting clause 14 for closure means they can’t later call foul on breach of contract. Either go full clause 12, call out breach and deny all benefits. Or go clause 14 and continue to provide benefits accordingly until closure date.
@JDB really intrigued as to why you think the above is not sound. I totally agree that if they want to site abuse then they can pull benefits, but using clause 14 is inconsistent with that.I think siting clause 14 for closure means they can’t later call foul on breach of contract. Either go full clause 12, call out breach and deny all benefits. Or go clause 14 and continue to provide benefits accordingly until closure date.
@JDB really intrigued as to why you think the above is not sound. I totally agree that if they want to site abuse then they can pull benefits, but using clause 14 is inconsistent with that.Firms don’t need to cite any reasons for account closure either under 60 days notice (para 14 for Creation) or immediate closure (para 12), although the latter has some specific and fairly serious criteria in the T&Cs and the law (CCA 1974). However, if a cardholder subsequently alleges they have been treated unfairly or the firm has breached the contract, they may then choose to cite reasons to justify their actions as part of any ‘balancing’ decision by a judge/arbitrator. If you look at the brief IHG Reward credit card terms that incorporate the longer/full IHG Rewards programme terms, between them the firm has a lot of latitude. I get the impression that in the closure period many people were maxing out, so they will probably also raise issues re eligibility of ‘purchases’ vs Revolut top ups, paying off other cards etc.
It seems all cards images are just a generic creation card now.
The application page has been removed entirely too.
Maybe IHG don’t want to be associated with a company with such poor antics?
The optimistic part of my brain wants to believe this IHG are going to switch to a different provider for their credit card.
The realistic side of my brain reckons it’s just Creation being incompetent.
The pessimistic side of my brain fears that Creation are giving up and nobody will want to step in and take over the card at all.
siting clause 14 for closure
The closure letters did not cite any clauses / breach of the agreement as a reason for terminating it, nor have they stated in any correspondence that benefits would not continue to be provided. These are going to be two key points for my complaint, and it’s definitely worth my time in pursuing!
A little thought about fairness on this matter: As far as I’m aware anyone whose card anniversary was in September was still awarded their free night, even if they received a closure letter in early October: was any attempt made by Creation to claw these back (or even the free nights allocated on anniversaries which happened in months previous)? I doubt it. Reading correspondence from others here, Creation have also been inconsistent in treatment of fees for those whose cards are being cancelled. Initially continuing to levy the fee, then refunding some, and most recently (my anniversary date is Nov) they seem to have stopped charging.
Personally I’m not overly concerned about previous FOS decisions as my complaint (and FOS submission if it gets that far) will outline the facts and evidence from Creation, which smacks of a poorly planned and executed reaction!
siting clause 14 for closure
“The closure letters did not cite any clauses / breach of the agreement as a reason for terminating it, nor have they stated in any correspondence that benefits would not continue to be provided. These are going to be two key points for my complaint..”
@EwanG the law – Consumer Credit Act 1974, S98A(3) does not require the card provider to cite any reasons, so if this is one of your two key points, the first has already failed. The second is perhaps a bit greyer and may be case specific.- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
What will happen to the Marriott cards issued by Creation ?
I didn’t say they had to cite the reason and of course it’s been mentioned many times on this topic already that Creation are justifying this a a ‘commercial decision’ and that is within their rights to do however it would’ve been reasonable for them to have referred to the T&Cs or even clause 14 in their letter if that was the clause being exercised.
Not sure I agree that it’s grey about the failure to provide benefits – it’s black and white, in this case white as Creation didn’t communicate this to customers!
What do you make about my second paragraph @JDB? Imagine two customers, each having their IHG card being closed. The one with card anniversary in September received their free night, the other whose anniversary is in October didn’t get it. They both paid their fee at the beginning of the card year and were expecting to receive the free night – except the latter is under notice of closure from the service provider for 3 weeks out of that 52 week period (the other is 1 week into their next card year), there is nothing to suggest they are not a “good customer” or in breach of terms therefore will not be receiving the benefit.
I didn’t say they had to cite the reason and of course it’s been mentioned many times on this topic already that Creation are justifying this a a ‘commercial decision’ and that is within their rights to do however it would’ve been reasonable for them to have referred to the T&Cs or even clause 14 in their letter if that was the clause being exercised.
Not sure I agree that it’s grey about the failure to provide benefits – it’s black and white, in this case white as Creation didn’t communicate this to customers!
What do you make about my second paragraph @JDB? Imagine two customers, each having their IHG card being closed. The one with card anniversary in September received their free night, the other whose anniversary is in October didn’t get it. They both paid their fee at the beginning of the card year and were expecting to receive the free night – except the latter is under notice of closure from the service provider for 3 weeks out of that 52 week period (the other is 1 week into their next card year), there is nothing to suggest they are not a “good customer” or in breach of terms therefore will not be receiving the benefit.
@EwanG it is quite systematic across card companies not to cite any reasons for closure (nor will people get it from DSAR). There is nothing unusual here and in any event you have suffered no prejudice by them not giving a reason, so there is simply no basis for complaint on that front and including it detracts from any good arguments you may have.In respect of Sep/Oct, that seems quite clear – if you qualified in Sep, prior to the letter, you got the voucher, but after the letter you don’t as they have served notice of the closure of your account.
Other card companies including Tesco and Amex have also done exactly the same thing where there are annual fees and anniversary rewards involved.
- This reply was modified 54 years, 4 months ago by .
Sorry JDB I am simply not buying that a card has the right to close unilaterally, without proving any wrongdoing by the cardholder, and not provide all promised benefits up to the date of closing.
If they can prove breach of the terms that were notified with due notice to the cardholder (ie at opening of card, or 60 days ahead of any changes taking effect) then the card might be able to close without notice or providing benefits promised. Even if the cardholder has breached the terms, it would be a lot better if the fact that this could lead to closure without notice and/or promised benefits being paid, was stated in the terms very clearly.
If Creation isn’t willing to state and win an argument about terms being breached then *yes they can close the card* citing something vague like commercial reasons or even hiding behind the clause or some finance industry rule that says they don’t have to state the reason. But the cardco can’t have it both ways. If they don’t want to state (and win any argument about) the reason then if they close the card they have to pay out promised benefits in full. It would be unfair for a cardco to close whoever’s card they like – that bit’s fair – and not pay out benefits when it’s solely their decision and they haven’t proved the customer did something wrong – that bit’s not fair.
Also calling it an anniversary award does not matter. The person could earn a free night on the first day of the year. Creation being, say, nasty and stupid cheapskates, could look at nights earned, but at the operational level paid out at an anniversary, and decide “We, Creation, promised to give free nights earned. But we don’t feel like paying out what we promised now that has been earned, so we’ll terminate cards early to avoid paying what we promised”. This would be an unfair contract.
If the FOS falls for the above then they are even more useless than I thought they were. Plenty of cases where FOS failed to give what was right but courts did. Remember each contract with a cardco is individual. To make this fly in your own personal case, Creation would have to prove wrongdoing in your own personal case. Not just that they made errors and thought they were losing money or decided to disallow one sort of use without giving 60 days notice.
Did I miss an announcement that Creation have pulled the basic IHG card ? I just went to check out the offer so my husband could apply after they cancelled mine but can’t find it anywhere ?
Sorry JDB I am simply not buying that a card has the right to close unilaterally, without proving any wrongdoing by the cardholder, and not provide all promised benefits up to the date of closing.
Of course they can’t … JDB keeps repeating that people may loose at FOS, but frankly I don’t care about that. There’s not a cat in hells chance Creation will successfully defend their position in the County Court.
@JDB I’d wager £100 I’m going win at MCOL — care to take the bet? I’m happy to deposit the cash now with Her Ladyship, Rob, or another neutral party.IANAL
siting clause 14 for closure
A little thought about fairness on this matter: As far as I’m aware anyone whose card anniversary was in September was still awarded their free night, even if they received a closure letter in early October: was any attempt made by Creation to claw these back (or even the free nights allocated on anniversaries which happened in months previous)? I doubt it.
I had a complaint settled on 22nd September as my previous award night (due from the end of last year) hadn’t been credited. In settlement the night was credited with what appears to be (from other reports) a standard £150 goodwill credit. At that point they’d already blocked Curve and sent out the text, and it was about a week before the letters went out giving 60 days notice.
Looking back at Rob’s article from 1st October on the closures he reported that the call centre was telling customers at that point that the anniversary nights would be credited where spend threshold had been reach prior to the closure date. I wonder if the decision to play hard-ball came a bit later but there does appear to have been a decision made at some point to try to cut their losses through spend on points and award nights for affected customers, regardless of their obligations under the published terms and conditions relating to awards.
Sorry JDB I am simply not buying that a card has the right to close unilaterally, without proving any wrongdoing by the cardholder, and not provide all promised benefits up to the date of closing.
The first part is a matter of law (and certainly CCA 1974 could hardly be described as obscure), the second is a bit greyer (but only a bit) but provided for in the terms. Once you are served with a notice of closure, all bets are off. Any ‘unfairness’ is subjective and could go either way and as such a balancing act – if anyone has rinsed them, there won’t be a lot of sympathy from FOS or a judge. As above, Tesco and Amex (as well as Creation) have successfully defended no refund/no annual reward.
There is absolutely no requirement to ‘prove’ any wrongdoing and that applies as much for any court case as it does for the FOS. Any credit card provider has an absolute right in law to close your account without giving a reason; firms obviously don’t want to get into a discussion about it nor disclose reasons in case it helps people try to circumvent them.
Previous FOS decisions are not precedents per se, but will carry weight and they have previously decided that the annual fee is effectively giving you the voucher in arrears – i.e. the FOS says there are three triggers (and you need all three) to get your voucher – spending £10k, reaching your anniversary and paying the fee. I’m not saying whether they are right or wrong, simply repeating the facts.
It’s not correct to say you had to pay the following year’s fee to receive the anniversary night. Creation confirmed to Rob back in July 2017 the process for getting the anniversary night credited for anyone who did not wish to pay another fee and keep the card, which was documented here:
https://www.headforpoints.com/2017/07/04/ihg-rewards-club-premium-mastercard-free-night-question/
What/when was the FOS decision that contradicts this?
Anyone got the URL to the Creation’s terms and conditions for the IHG cards? Thanks
See my previous post that has links to the two sets of terms and conditions, one for the card and the other for the points / anniversary night awards:
https://www.headforpoints.com/forums/topic/creation-bashing/page/3/#post-295505
JDB we agree on this. They can close the card unilaterally without giving a reason.
But they can’t close the card unilaterally without paying out all benefits earned up to closure date. This would be totally unfair.
Creation are looking like sleazeballs for trying this. And you saw my remarks about my lack of respect for the FOS if they fall for this.
JDB we agree on this. They can close the card unilaterally without giving a reason.
But they can’t close the card unilaterally without paying out all benefits earned up to closure date. This would be totally unfair.
Creation are looking like sleazeballs for trying this. And you saw my remarks about my lack of respect for the FOS if they fall for this.
As I say, other firms have done this and the cardholder has lost.
Previous FOS decisions are not precedents per se, but will carry weight and they have previously decided that the annual fee is effectively giving you the voucher in arrears – i.e. the FOS says there are three triggers (and you need all three) to get your voucher – spending £10k, reaching your anniversary and paying the fee. I’m not saying whether they are right or wrong, simply repeating the facts.
It’s not correct to say you had to pay the following year’s fee to receive the anniversary night. Creation confirmed to Rob back in July 2017.
What/when was the FOS decision that contradicts
this?The FOS decision DRN2242979 was in December 2018. There are also similar decisions for other firms.
JDB we agree on this. They can close the card unilaterally without giving a reason.
But they can’t close the card unilaterally without paying out all benefits earned up to closure date. This would be totally unfair.
Creation are looking like sleazeballs for trying this. And you saw my remarks about my lack of respect for the FOS if they fall for this.
As I say, other firms have done this and the cardholder has lost.
FOS should be feeding back on this to FCA / legislators, not falling for it.
Also it’s all very well to quote cases, probably worth a look to distinguish them from current case – otherwise don’t bother with the FOS as they are not fit for purpose if they let cardco’s get away with this sort of thing.
In that case you’re referring to @JDB, where the Ombudsman’s decision states “Under this scheme he could only benefit from the free night once a new year had started and he’d paid a further £99 fee and not at the point at which his spend reached £10,000.” if I was Mr G (and I am a Mr G, just not that Mr G) I would have partly challenged that statement. The payment of a further £99 fee is not a pre-requisite to get the free night – the evidence is referenced by Marks7389 in his post of today (#297327). On the other point the Ombudsman is correct with the free night becoming due at the anniversary.
I’m with LL here – they don’t have a leg to stand on with regards withholding paying out the entitled benefits (free night and accrued points).
If my case requires to go to FOS then so be it but I’m expecting Creation to capitulate before that point.OS decision DRN2242979
Trying again as my post has just disappeared….
OK, so I’ve read that decision. It doesn’t say which party cancelled the card or under what circumstances, but the implication is that “Mr G” cancelled it prior to the anniversary date, and hence did not qualify for the award. I think the payment of the annual fee is a red herring in this. The terms and conditions apply no such condition, and we know that Creation has been willing to credit the anniversary night without payment of the next year’s fee so long as the cardholder has complied with the terms.
The situation we’re discussing is very different from a situation where someone has cancelled the card part way through the year, having met the spend threshold, and then complains that the anniversary night was not awarded.
I’ve already commented on the undefined term “active” in relation to the relevant clause, which I note the decision has in quotes. That may be relevant in certain circumstances as it is not clear at what point the account becomes inactive in respect of that – not necessarily the date from which new card transactions were blocked. However the core issue is one of Creation unilaterally closing accounts and then refusing to honour their commitment to provide the award by virtue of having removed the cardholder’s ability to comply with that condition, even though they’ve met all the other requirements.
I’m with Lady London on all this. I believe there is a very strong case on this point, and even more so where Creation has withheld points transfers during the notice period.
In that case you’re referring to @JDB, where the Ombudsman’s decision states “Under this scheme he could only benefit from the free night once a new year had started and he’d paid a further £99 fee and not at the point at which his spend reached £10,000.” if I was Mr G (and I am a Mr G, just not that Mr G) I would have partly challenged that statement. The payment of a further £99 fee is not a pre-requisite to get the free night – the evidence is referenced by Marks7389 in his post of today (#297327). On the other point the Ombudsman is correct with the free night becoming due at the anniversary.
The anniversary/fee issue was not my view – it was an Ombudsman decision overriding the investigator’s preliminary decision.
@EwanG yes the case is different but it gives an indication of the three triggers and there have also been countless cases where anniversary rewards are not given, irrespective of who closed the account.
Creation, along with other card providers including Amex, generally consider accounts not to be active after notice of closure; they are certainly not the only people to withhold benefits during this period.
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