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  • marks7389 425 posts

    The anniversary/fee issue was not my view – it was an Ombudsman decision overriding the investigator’s preliminary decision.

    And probably not worth disputing under the circumstances on the assumption that Mr G had closed his account before the anniversary date. On that basis I agree the decision to not uphold was correct, however if it were me and the decision had been purely based on the non-payment of a further fee I would have rejected it on the basis that the there is no requirement set out to do so. Its not clear though that he would have reached the same decision in that case.

    • This reply was modified 54 years, 3 months ago by .
    JDB 4,336 posts

    @marks7389 if you are going to complain/go to the FOS you need to get the actual terms upon which Creation are relying, including any you may have signed up to on opening the account. It’s not really of much use to download what’s online now as you need to know precisely what may be used against you. Remember that at FOS (rather than court proceedings) you don’t get to see the other side’s submissions, so you will really be hampering your case if you are using different terms. Obviously, you need to satisfy yourself that you were notified of any such terms.

    SteveJ 975 posts

    @JDB what are these other cases? I presume they were notice to cancel the cards for breaches rather than just a commercial decision, so a very different scenario. I don’t know of any FOS precedent here, happy to be educated.

    JDB 4,336 posts

    @JDB what are these other cases? I presume they were notice to cancel the cards for breaches rather than just a commercial decision, so a very different scenario. I don’t know of any FOS precedent here, happy to be educated.

    There is simply no distinction in the legislation between a ‘commercial decision’ or breaches etc. They are all 60 day notice closures under CCA 1974 S98A(3). In respect of previous decisions the FOS also draws no distinction between which party closed the account; you either reach your anniversary with an open/active account or you don’t.

    You can of course challenge all that, but you need to do quite a bit of research rather than hoping that what seems fair or logical to you is how an independent arbitrator/judge would see it.

    TGLoyalty 479 posts

    @marks7389 if you are going to complain/go to the FOS you need to get the actual terms upon which Creation are relying, including any you may have signed up to on opening the account. It’s not really of much use to download what’s online now as you need to know precisely what may be used against you. Remember that at FOS (rather than court proceedings) you don’t get to see the other side’s submissions, so you will really be hampering your case if you are using different terms. Obviously, you need to satisfy yourself that you were notified of any such terms.

    Wasn’t the onus on creation to update us the consumer on any term changes? I have received no such communication since my black card was opened therefore why wouldn’t the 2017 terms still published on their website apply?

    And secret T&Cs they may think are applicable should be disregarded.

    JDB 4,336 posts

    @TGLoyalty

    I’m merely relaying my experience of these matters; people often complain to firms but later discover they are working off the wrong T&Cs, so you need to be sure which terms Creation is relying upon to avoid the nasty surprise others have experienced; it isn’t a matter of any secret terms. I advised people in October to get hold of these as you obviously shouldn’t be complaining/appealing to the FOS without knowing the basis. The FOS repeatedly says that it is reasonable for firms to expect customers to have read the T&Cs; a lot of comments re Creation on here suggest they haven’t…

    I thought the latest credit card terms are from April 2019? The CC terms do require notification of changes, however I don’t think the same applies to the two sets of rewards T&Cs, the current versions of which both appear to be undated.

    TGLoyalty 479 posts

    Are you talking about the terms of the creation IHG card ? Or the IHG rewards programme.

    The issue here is with creation and their withholding of benefits not with IHG (which could become another issue)

    JDB 4,336 posts

    Are you talking about the terms of the creation IHG card ? Or the IHG rewards programme.

    The issue here is with creation and their withholding of benefits not with IHG (which could become another issue)

    The IHG Rewards scheme terms are incorporated within the Creation terms (at para 6 for black card) so there are three sets of T&Cs in total relating to the credit card and issuance of rewards. I have seen references to a set of terms (that I haven’t seen) that people signed at the time of application that have been used by Creation at FOS.

    • This reply was modified 54 years, 3 months ago by .
    stevenhp1987 330 posts

    Are you talking about the terms of the creation IHG card ? Or the IHG rewards programme.

    The issue here is with creation and their withholding of benefits not with IHG (which could become another issue)

    The IHG Rewards scheme terms are incorporated within the Creation terms (at para 6 for black card) so there are three sets of T&Cs in total relating to the credit card and issuance of rewards. I have seen references to a set of terms (that I haven’t seen) that people signed at the time of application that have been used by Creation at FOS.

    Good luck getting said T&C off them.

    I did a SAR which was missing lots of information. No T&C etc.

    I’ve queried it and they said they’ve sent me all they have on file and they are not willing to engage me further.

    How exactly are we meant to get true and accurate copies of the card T&C?

    EwanG 111 posts

    How exactly are we meant to get true and accurate copies of the card T&C?

    I’ve scanned a copy of the T&Cs and Card Agreement and added a post to this thread with links but it’s not materialised (and no word that it’s been moderated).
    Let me try doing the links separately.

    SteveJ 975 posts

    @stevenhp1987 in this case I suggest you make your case using the most recent t&c and mention in your submission that you are using this as when you asked Creation on the SAR they gave you nothing.

    JDB 4,336 posts

    @stevenhp1987 – I wouldn’t have expected to find the T&Cs in any SAR request any more than I would expect to find the reasons for account closure; I’m afraid that was an entirely nugatory exercise. If you haven’t kept a copy of the terms you originally signed up to (and/or any subsequent amendments), I would write to them with a copy of what you have got (3 docs) and ask them to confirm, by 16.30 on 7 January (c. 14 days + allowance for Xmas/NY), either that the terms are the correct ones or if they are not, to supply the correct ones by the same date/time. You should say that you will be relying on their response (or failure to respond) in pursuing your complaint with the FOS and will ask the FOS to take any lack of co-operation in dealing with this simple request into account in considering your complaint.

    I know all this sounds very tedious, but without the correct info on which to base your complaint you are going to the shootout unarmed.

    EwanG 111 posts

    Here are the Premium Card T&Cs from when I opened my Premium card in Q4 2016.
    T&Cs: https://pdfhost.io/v/4NianfgBp_Premium_Card_TCs (dated May 2016)

    EwanG 111 posts

    Here are the Premium Card Agreement from when I opened my Premium card in Q4 2016.
    Agreement: https://pdfhost.io/v/oXSp4fXmy_Card_Agreement (dated May 2016)

    EwanG 111 posts

    Here are the some points of interest in those 2 documents:

    T&Cs
    o Clause 3 para 3 gives two reasons for suspending points, explains “once your account is back in good order” you will earn points again.
    o Clause 4 explains about the criteria for awarding the free night

    Agreement
    o Clause 15 explains if the agreement is ended under clauses 12-14 you must immediately repay the balance and stop using the card (which contradicts them providing the 2 months notice)

    Also, on the accompanying letter with the card, it stated the need to activate the card, so from a customer perspective we should be aware of three account statuses: issued, active/activated, closed.

    Backing up my earlier statements there has been no communication from Creation to say accounts are not in good order (so one must assume that they do remain in good order) and there is no grey area. Those documents above in black and white give no justification for points to be withheld or the free night not awarded if the anniversary was during the notice period (despite the view being pushed that an account under notice is no longer active – the card works, I can use it and pay to reduce the balance, it is still active and I would challenge FOS on that point if it ever got to it!).

    If the anniversary was after the end of the notice period and you were on track/planning to meet the spend criteria but prevented from the account being active on the anniversary because the card is being closed, it’s a more difficult point to argue but the card issuer should not be allowed to withdraw that opportunity without some compensatory benefit, in which case they really could be providing the free night itself!

    JDB 4,336 posts

    JDB we agree on this. They can close the card unilaterally without giving a reason.

    But they can’t close the card unilaterally without paying out all benefits earned up to closure date. This would be totally unfair.

    Creation are looking like sleazeballs for trying this. And you saw my remarks about my lack of respect for the FOS if they fall for this.

    As I say, other firms have done this and the cardholder has lost.

    FOS should be feeding back on this to FCA / legislators, not falling for it.

    Also it’s all very well to quote cases, probably worth a look to distinguish them from current case – otherwise don’t bother with the FOS as they are not fit for purpose if they let cardco’s get away with this sort of thing.

    @LadyLondon regulators aren’t that interest in paid for/rewards cards as the people who use them are considered more sophisticated and can to extent look after themselves. Here of course we have people sufficiently sophisticated to milk the system who suddenly become all ditsy/feign ignorance of the T&Cs when it no longer suits.

    EwanG 111 posts

    Reposting this again as the version I posted yesterday never materialised (and did not say it had gone for moderation)

    Here are the Premium Card T&Cs and Card Agreement from when I opened my Premium card in Q4 2016.
    T&Cs: https://pdfhost.io/v/4NianfgBp_Premium_Card_TCs (dated May 2016)
    Agreement: https://pdfhost.io/v/oXSp4fXmy_Card_Agreement (dated May 2016)

    Points of interest:
    T&Cs
    o Clause 3 para 3 gives two reasons for suspending points, explains “once your account is back in good order” you will earn points again.
    o Clause 4 explains about the criteria for awarding the free night

    Agreement
    o Clause 15 explains if the agreement is ended under clauses 12-14 you must immediately repay the balance and stop using the card (which contradicts them providing the 2 months notice)

    Also, on the accompanying letter with the card, it stated the need to activate the card, so from a customer perspective we should be aware of three account statuses: issued, active/activated, closed.

    Backing up my earlier statements there has been no communication from Creation to say accounts are not in good order (so one must assume that they do remain in good order) and there is no grey area. Those documents above in black and white give no justification for points to be withheld or the free night not awarded if the anniversary was during the notice period (despite the view being pushed that an account under notice is no longer active – the card works, I can use it and pay to reduce the balance, it is still active and I would challenge FOS on that point if it ever got to it!).

    If the anniversary was after the end of the notice period and you were on track/planning to meet the spend criteria but prevented from the account being active on the anniversary because the card is being closed, it’s a more difficult point to argue but the card issuer should not be allowed to withdraw that opportunity without some compensatory benefit, in which case they really could be providing the free night itself!

    JDB 4,336 posts

    Are you talking about the terms of the creation IHG card ? Or the IHG rewards programme.

    The issue here is with creation and their withholding of benefits not with IHG (which could become another issue)

    The IHG Rewards scheme terms are incorporated within the Creation terms (at para 6 for black card) so there are three sets of T&Cs in total relating to the credit card and issuance of rewards. I have seen references to a set of terms (that I haven’t seen) that people signed at the time of application that have been used by Creation at FOS.

    Good luck getting said T&C off them.

    I did a SAR which was missing lots of information. No T&C etc.

    I’ve queried it and they said they’ve sent me all they have on file and they are not willing to engage me further.

    How exactly are we meant to get true and accurate copies of the card T&C?

    I wouldn’t have expected to find the T&Cs in any SAR request any more than I would expect to find the reasons for account closure; I’m afraid that was an entirely nugatory exercise. If you haven’t kept a copy of the terms you originally signed up to (and/or any subsequent amendments), I would write to them with a copy of what you have got and ask them to confirm, by 16.30 on 7 January (c. 14 days + allowance for Xmas/NY), either that the terms are the correct ones or if they are not, to supply the correct ones by the same date/time. You should say that you will be relying on their response (or failure to respond) in pursuing your complaint with the FOS and will ask the FOS to take any lack of co-operation in dealing with this simple request into account in considering your complaint.

    I know all this sounds very tedious, but without the correct info on which to base your complaint you are going to the shootout unarmed.

    EwanG 111 posts

    Here are the Premium Card T&Cs and Card Agreement from when I opened my Premium card in Q4 2016.
    T&Cs: https://pdfhost.io/v/4NianfgBp_Premium_Card_TCs (dated May 2016)
    Agreement: https://pdfhost.io/v/oXSp4fXmy_Card_Agreement (dated May 2016)

    Points of interest:
    T&Cs
    o Clause 3 para 3 gives two reasons for suspending points, explains “once your account is back in good order” you will earn points again.
    o Clause 4 explains about the criteria for awarding the free night

    Agreement
    o Clause 15 explains if the agreement is ended under clauses 12-14 you must immediately repay the balance and stop using the card (which contradicts them providing the 2 months notice)

    Also, on the accompanying letter with the card, it stated the need to activate the card, so from a customer perspective we should be aware of three account statuses: issued, active/activated, closed.

    Backing up my earlier statements there has been no communication from Creation to say accounts are not in good order (so one must assume that they do remain in good order) and there is no grey area. Those documents above in black and white give no justification for points to be withheld or the free night not awarded if the anniversary was during the notice period (despite the view being pushed that an account under notice is no longer active – the card works, I can use it and pay to reduce the balance, it is still active and I would challenge FOS on that point if it ever got to it!).

    If the anniversary was after the end of the notice period and you were on track/planning to meet the spend criteria but prevented from the account being active on the anniversary because the card is being closed, it’s a more difficult point to argue but the card issuer should not be allowed to withdraw that opportunity without some compensatory benefit, in which case they really could be providing the free night itself!

    JDB 4,336 posts

    @EwanG – as above, the terms you have published are Barclaycard terms; Creation provided new terms when they took over the IHG cards in 2017. I am not sure what further amendments there were subsequently, but those need to be take into account as well. Also, don’t forget the full IHG Rewards terms that were incorporated then, still are and thus form part of the overall agreement with Creation.

    Jon9 16 posts

    @EwanG – as above, the terms you have published are Barclaycard terms; Creation provided new terms when they took over the IHG cards in 2017. I am not sure what further amendments there were subsequently, but those need to be take into account as well. Also, don’t forget the full IHG Rewards terms that were incorporated then, still are and thus form part of the overall agreement with Creation.

    The IHG T&Cs will reference how IHG run their overall points scheme not how Creation award points. Those terms and conditions give IHG the right to adjust point deposits, not anyone else.

    EwanG 111 posts

    the terms you have published are Barclaycard terms

    Having never held the Barclaycard version, those are the terms Creation issued to me in Q4 2016 when I opened my account.
    I don’t have record of any NoV (notice of variation) so those are the terms still governing my Creation account.

    JDB 4,336 posts

    the terms you have published are Barclaycard terms

    Having never held the Barclaycard version, those are the terms Creation issued to me in Q4 2016 when I opened my account.
    I don’t have record of any NoV (notice of variation) so those are the terms still governing my Creation account.

    Apologies, that’s quite strange as I thought Creation got the contract in 2017. They updated the terms in 2019 but that was the CC terms and I’m not sure about the evolution of the two sets of points terms, but unfortunately in this instance they are the mainly the ones that matter/where the problems lie.

    SteveJ 975 posts

    I’m not sure about the evolution of the two sets of points terms, but unfortunately in this instance they are the mainly the ones that matter/where the problems lie.


    @JDB
    I’m not at all convinced they are relevant. The Creation terms do reference the IHG terms, that is correct. The IHG terms give IHG carte blanche to rip up any earned points as they see fit. They give no rights to Creation. Massive red herring.

    memesweeper 1,247 posts

    @LadyLondon regulators aren’t that interest in paid for/rewards cards as the people who use them are considered more sophisticated and can to extent look after themselves. Here of course we have people sufficiently sophisticated to milk the system who suddenly become all ditsy/feign ignorance of the T&Cs when it no longer suits.


    @JDB
    , you keep repeating that there’s a good chance Creation could defend some or all of their position at FOS. I will defer to your deeper knowledge on this, and I have some experience of other regulators ignoring ‘sideshow’ benefits not core to the thing being regulated. Perhaps you’re right, and we’ll all struggle with FOS, because FOS won’t care about points or free nights.

    I remain of the view that that the Consumer Rights Act is going to trample all over any argument of Creation’s that they are technically allowed to withhold the free night benefit, and as a simple matter of contract law they have no basis on which to withhold the points that were earned after the notifications of closure were sent out. They will undoubtably loose in the County Court. Yes, I have actually read the T&Cs, yes, including the included IHG ones.

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