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@Rui N perhaps I’m stupid but I don’t understand your post. The terms don’t expressly allow Amex, Creation or Tesco to adopt the position that all rewards cease on notice of closure, but they each apply the policy, so my question was simply: are they all wrong?
What we think isn’t the point though is it. Those of us pursuing a complaint against Creation only have to worry about the specifics of what happened in those cases and how, through the arguments that we present, we give ourselves the best chance of the outcome we are seeking.
In the end it will be down to the FOS and/or the County Court as to whether those complaints/actions succeed on their individual merits.
There is nothing to be gained in that from trying to delve through what happened between Alex V and Amex (insofar as we have the pertinent details) and make a judgement as to whether we think Amex was right or wrong. Alex has has the same options open to him/her to pursue it as we do in the Creation case.
Unlikely to proceed to FOS, but will give it some time to decide.
Obviously your choice, but you have little lose beyond your time spent in working up and submitting the complaint. There’s a fair bit of smoke been blown around the outcome of previous complaints, a lot of it irrelevant in my view – I wouldn’t let that put you off if you’re considering taking it forward.
It’s been an interesting morning!
I received my DSAR pack from Creation (obviously well outside the statutory timescale). The huge pack of paperwork was stuffed into a totally inappropriate paper envelope – the package had split and arrived in a ‘Our sincere apologies’ plastic bag from Royal Mail. Let’s hope none of my personal info has gone astray…
The first thing I noticed was that several items of correspondence were included in this pack but were never received by me… including the response to my complaint.
Creation are upholding my complaint on the free night certificate, which obviously I am happy about.
They are not refunding the fee nor the accrued points.
The pro rata fee is only about £20 so I’m not fussed about that but I will certainly be pushing for the points (I’ll be amending my FOS submission to reflect this).
I want to be really open, to avoid misinforming others but I THINK the reason my free night certificate will be awarded is due to an error made by Creation, that is unique to my account.
I need to fully read the full pack, complaint letter etc. Once I do this, I’ll give an update.
So you’re not telling Creation the DSAR pack arrived in an unuseable condition, not well enough packed to be fit for purpose and, due to splits in the packaging due to Creation having chosen to use materials of inadequate strength for the amount they were sending it appears Creation did not take steps to safeguard your personal data sufficiently?
I’d put that in writing to them and would ask them to provide an undamaged copy of the pack they sent. I might even raise a complaint is it to the ICAO? a UK Data honcho? about this asking for a rule governing the adequacy of secure packaging for all transmission of data to be made explicitly to include responsibility for secure transmimission by post if it’s not included already.
When you have a useable securely sent pack ensure to put in writing important things that are missing and state other things may also be missing. You can add a dig that this is disappointing especially as Creation sent it outside of the x days required. Sounds like adding copies of this correspondence to FOS and MCOL packs as evidence of their general incompetence is an idea.
Don’t let them off anything. Not even tbe £20. You are doing yourself and others no good by doing so, and Creation is relying on people not claiming in full as overall this will save them loads of money. Their sleazy treatment of cardholders needs to cost them time, money and reputation.
@Froggee you are right, but most here seem to disagree. In respect of blocking the card in the two months notice period, that effectively negating or rendering the notice period redundant which cannot be right??
Without delving into the detail, from what I’ve read that’s the thing that also strikes me as off. If a provider gives notice to terminate an account without cause (or does so because they’re not willing to state why they are closing it), surely the point is to allow the card-holder to continue to use the product whilst they make alternative arrangements.
If it made the difference between Alex V hitting the voucher spend threshold and not, or otherwise adversely impacted him, I would have thought that would be worth pursuing.
@Froggee you are right, but most here seem to disagree. In respect of blocking the card in the two months notice period, that effectively negating or rendering the notice period redundant which cannot be right??
JDB I hadn’t noticed Amex doing that with Alex V but hadb’t been paying attention. Yes if a cardco has to give 60 days notice but can withdraw benefits or stop use in that notice period then this would be unfair. Especially if a closure is unilateral by the business as the stronger party than the consumer. And very especially if, regardless of anything else covering them to do this,the business has not proved their unilateral decision to close was in any way the fault of the individual cardholder.
I’d say any clause allowing that, or allowing that without fair compensation would be unfair. How has the FOS not acted to get such unfair treatnent of consumers outlawed?
However the difference with Amex is the way they have gone about things and if they’ve withdrawn use ie benefits during a required 60 day notice period then I would ask them for what would normally have been received. Based on Amex’s behaviour in this and generally known behaviour, I would expect to receive something fair
As I mentioned earlier, Creation are awarding me my ‘free night certificate’.
After I received my account closure letter, I called Creation and was told that I would still receive the certificate. Their ‘final response’ letter to my complaint is poorly written but it is my understanding that they are only awarding me the certificate because of this previous conversation.
I have double checked the material provided in the DSAR and this conversation is noted.
Thoughts:
1) If anyone else spoke with Creation and was advised similarly, then I believe you have a strong case.
2) Although some on here have said that requesting a DSAR is spurious, I feel this shows the benefits of obtaining the information.@toddy I’m very pleased you got that outcome. That would be the only use of a DSAR, if you are seeking to prove estoppel, as you have successfully done. It is reassuring that when someone is in your position, with a valid case, they do concede the point when first challenged.
@toddy, Creation awarding the free night because they told you by mistake they would do so also shows how absurd @JDB stance is that Creation can tell you anything and then say “we didn’t mean really it, the terms say otherwise!” (I’m paraphrasing post #303286). They naturally know that wouldn’t fly anywhere.
Glad you that you got the free night. Please do complain to ICO about how Creation handled your DSAR.
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
@Froggee you are right, but most here seem to disagree. In respect of blocking the card in the two months notice period, that effectively negating or rendering the notice period redundant which cannot be right??
It may not be “right” but it is in the terms and conditions! I don’t think it is fair – particularly not in the case Alex highlighted unless there is something else going on. As I have mentioned before for the Creation white card where they did this to me, under clause 18:
“We may suspend the use of your Card if you are only making the minimum payment shown on
your Statement over a sustained period of no more than 36 months. In addition to our other
rights under this Agreement (including, but not limited to, our rights under clause 12) we may
at any time treat your right to draw down any further credit as restricted or deferred and take
such steps as may be necessary to make the restriction or deferment effective. We may also
refuse to issue a new or replacement Card to you or any Additional Cardholder at any time. We
will notify you in writing of any such decision as soon as possible. We will normally only restrict
your right to make further draw downs if we reasonably consider payment of the Outstanding
Balance to be at risk as, for example, where you have defaulted under any other agreement with
us or any Associated Company.”Needless to say when the dust settles I’m going to put in a complaint about this as well as my 200 points they did not give me. Whilst caveated with the word “normally” there is no way they could reasonably have considered payment of the outstanding balance to be at risk. I also found it distressing that I was sent several promotional emails encouraging me to use my card after they had blocked it and I am unhappy about the fact that a card is shown as being opened and closed in the same month on my credit report. They took my application and issued me with a card which they let me use. They then changed their mind for reasons they won’t, of course, share with me but it does not appear to be reasonable or treating me fairly.
Amex = serious operators. Creation = not.
*********Another reply, only a few lines, lost agaon after a captcha.
Given the earlier WordPress repeated failure to place Replies never completely disappeared it’s a pity that that never being resolved a new, worse problem has arisen and we’re still on WordPress****************
Completely random as it wasn’t a hugely nested reply and the software gave another captcha reroute this morning previously but did not lose the post
@SteveJ It’s not that in the 2 month period Creation withheld the benefits *paid for*. It’s that Creation withheld the benefits contracted for, that are the core benefits of the card that it customers are enticed to take the card to get. The benefits were not ‘paid for’ they were ‘promised’ and ‘signed up for’.
I cannot stress how important it is not to describe these benefits as ‘paid for’ and important not to describe the card fee as being for. Do not do this. Do not use these words.
You fulfilled your part of the bargain you spent enough to earn the free nights and points. Your performance of your side of the bargain is what earned you the free night and points. It’s a subtle difference but really really important.
Your card fee paid only for the use of the card. To have it in your wallet available to spend on whether you used it or not. Your card fee did not pay for free nights and points. Wash your mouth out with soap and prepare to lose any claim if you say this.
Why do you think Creation is sleazily refunding some people’s card fees and claiming this means they don’t have to give the cardholder the free nights and points the cardholder has fulfilled their part of the bargain (ie spent the amounts that earned these) to get the promised nights and points that Creation is trying not to pay?
Creation is trying to make a false link here. You’d have had to pay the card fee whether you spent on it or not. You signed up for the card enticed by yhe fact that according to the amount spent (and not according to the fee) you would receive nights and points.
(Yes you should still ask for a pro rata refund of the card fee . But that’s an issue of how to calculate fairly an amount towards the loss of use caused by a no-fault closure by the cardco. No-fault because under English law it’s no fault till proven and Creation has declined to prove it.)
- This reply was modified 55 years, 4 months ago by .
@SteveJ It’s not that in the 2 month period Creation withheld the benefits *paid for*. It’s that Creation withheld the benefits contracted for, that are the core benefits of the card that it customers are enticed to take the card to get. The benefits were not ‘paid for’ they were ‘promised’ and ‘signed up for’.
I have a slightly different take on it.
I think you’re right to caution against simply saying the benefits were paid for, but I also don’t think the payment of the annual fee is irrelevant. Paying it was an integral part of the cardholder fulfilling their side of the contract, which gave them the right to the use of the card and therefore gain access to its associated benefits including the ability to earn the night voucher and points.
But as you rightly point out it it was one of several things the cardholder had to do in order to fulfil their part of the bargain. Simply taking upon themselves to unilaterally and retrospectively refund it doesn’t change that they entered into that contract to provide the card services and earned rewards, and that the cardholder fully fulfilled their end of that contract (assuming that is the case).
I think people should be careful about asking for a full refund of the annual fee and their missing rewards. I get you’re not advocating that. Personally I missed out on 27 days of card usage and am not really interested in muddying the waters for a £7.23 pro-rata refund, but will obviously be different for others.
@JDB, I would say they are actually wrong unless there is specific provision in the Ts and Cs which allows them to do this. Do you have a link to such a condition?
BAPP has a provision to stop benefits that (in full) says:- “If we close your Card Account in accordance with the Card Account Agreement, you will no longer earn Avios and any Avios that have not yet appeared on your American Express Avios balance will be forfeited. Any Avios already in your American Express Avios balance will still be transferred to your British Airways Avios balance.”
It makes no mention that this takes effect from notice of closure, rather than actual closure two months later. Both Amex and Creation are treating accounts as being closed for rewards purposes during the two months notice period; I don’t know where they both derive that position from, but Tesco also does the same thing. Amex appears also immediately to block your card for two months, something also not provided for in the terms, or ? the law.
They can’t all be making it up, but it is not in any of their terms. On the Amex terms, if you had a pending transaction prior to the notice, you also wouldn’t get those Avios which seems tough.
Hey @JDB. The card’s terms and conditions say “We may suspend your account or any feature on your account (including a supplementary card) if:
• you tell us to close your account or we tell you we are closing your account;” (and a bunch of other reasons).Creation’s terms and conditions also allow them to do similar. Indeed they blocked my white card in this manner. But they did not block most people’s cards and contradicted their own terms and conditions. So everything BA has done is in accordance with their terms and conditions. It is highly debateable whether it is fair to block a 241 £100 short of the spend but that is a separate issue.
@toddy, Creation awarding the free night because they told you by mistake they would do so also shows how absurd @JDB stance is that Creation can tell you anything and then say “we didn’t mean really it, the terms say otherwise!” (I’m paraphrasing post #303286). They naturally know that wouldn’t fly anywhere.
Glad you that you got the free night. Please do complain to ICO about how Creation handled your DSAR.
And definitely ask Creation to send “a copy of the pack they sent as the one they sent is unuseable, (ie “the copy they made” (if they were intelligwnt and professionally effective). I’d guess there’s more than a 50% chance Creation didn’t actually have the professionalism to have copied it before they sent it to you in a risky manner.
And yesterday’s captcha’d comments now appear after marinading overnight…
My wife has had her £99 fee for her closed IHG black card refunded and for the last month she has been trying to have this credit balance returned to her bank account. She has contacted Creation using their online messaging facility, emailing customecare@creation.co.uk and tried phoning and gave up after being on hold for nearly an hour. Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to get this sorted by Creation?
@Magarathea lodge a formal complaint with Creation to start the clock ticking. It will probably take 8 weeks to resolve, though.
My wife has had her £99 fee for her closed IHG black card refunded and for the last month she has been trying to have this credit balance returned to her bank account. She has contacted Creation using their online messaging facility, emailing customecare@creation.co.uk and tried phoning and gave up after being on hold for nearly an hour. Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to get this sorted by Creation?
That email address appears misspelt which may be why they haven’t responded. Many have reported no issues getting refunds of credit balances; it shouldn’t even require a complaint.
My wife has had her £99 fee for her closed IHG black card refunded and for the last month she has been trying to have this credit balance returned to her bank account. She has contacted Creation using their online messaging facility, emailing customecare@creation.co.uk and tried phoning and gave up after being on hold for nearly an hour. Does anyone have suggestions on the best way to get this sorted by Creation?
That email address appears misspelt which may be why they haven’t responded. Many have reported no issues getting refunds of credit balances; it shouldn’t even require a complaint.
Thanks for the feedback guys. My wife sent the email to the correct Creation address of customercare@creation.co.uk. I just typed it wrong by mistake today. We will bang a complaint in and see if this wakens them up and at worst this will start up the clock.
Quotation from their email acknowledging my complaint 3 months ago: ‘If for any reason we are unable to resolve your complaint within this time, we will tell you why and explain when we think we will be able to respond. ‘ They clearly make things up as no timeframe was given when they sent the letter asking for more time. Have submitted everything to FOS just now
Hi, I also complained after my IHG Premium card was closed (same as others). No MS at all, but I did use Curve as Creation couldn’t be added to Apple Pay.
Following a bit of back & forth re free night certificate, points accumulated after notice provided and my annual fee, they have offered to refund my annual fee in full. I’ve accepted this as I feel it’s the best I would achieve without being drawn into a lot more aggro.
Still very sore at losing the card and have switched to HSBC Premier MC as the alternative to this IHG card. Quote from Creation response:
===================
Thank you for your email and I apologise for the delay in my response.I have reviewed your case and decided to refund the £99.00 annual fee on this occasion. All other rewards for IHG would not be awarded.
====================Interesting Scott. Do you mind if I ask when was your card anniversary was? Had you recently just paid the fee?
Interesting Scott. Do you mind if I ask when was your card anniversary was? Had you recently just paid the fee?
Hi. Anniversary was July, so I had paid it in July then received the notice in October I think it was – 3 months had passed and I had already earned the free night certificate.
Have just submitted two FOS complaints on behalf of my wife and I. Solid 1,500 words or so for each (mine was slightly longer as I have points sitting with Creation that weren’t transferred). Have asked for the outcomes below:
Mine:
I am wanting Creation to refund me the £45.84 part of the annual fee. Then, I would like Creation to either: (i) Transfer the 2,616 IHG points to my IHG Rewards Club account and provide me with the free IHG night that I have already earned, or to pay me the value that I have ascribed to the voucher and the points not transferred (details in the body of the complaint), that being £609.64. If I were to be paid out the value of the points ascribed to the free night certificate, then with the pro-rata refund, that would total a payment of £665.48.My wife’s:
I am wanting Creation to refund me the £29.29 part of the annual fee and then either, provide me with the free IHG night that I have already earned, or to pay me the value that I have ascribed to the voucher (details in the body of the complaint), that being £587.60. If I were to be paid out the value of the points ascribed to the free night certificate, then with the pro-rata refund, that would total a payment of £616.89.I said that the voucher was of a value of 80,000 points and included some hotel booking confirmations for the Kimpton Edinburgh where we stayed last year which for the same weekend this year is 81,000 on the Friday night and 77,000 on the Saturday night and converted at today’s FX rate from $800 which is the price you can buy 80k points from IHG for.
I went with the argument that a) how can they charge for a whole year’s fee when not giving the benefits for the full year and b) in relation to the free night voucher being awarded at the end of the year, if I meet their requirements in order to earn the free night, then how is it fair given the mismatched power in the contractual relationship between myself and Creation, that they can then just close my account and not give me something already earned. I even quoted clause 6 of the T&Cs which Creation did in the final letter rejecting the complaint (hilariously I complained two months earlier and still awaiting a decision), stating that whilst it might be a T&C to change something after something has been earned can’t be a fair T&C.
Shall see what they say! Although given another FOS complaint I put in, in September 2020, took 12 months to come to a conclusion, I’m not expecting this to be a fast resolution!
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