Creation Financial Services bashing

[JDB]

@jj the theoretical element relates inter alia to the value of the voucher or points if the voucher or points are not going to be delivered. Compensation in that type of case doesn’t work on the basis people have been suggesting. The doctrine of loss of chance would apply in a court; not sure how FOS will deal it but some suggestions are rather outlandish. Settlements were I understand probably c.£250-£300 for the voucher.

[jj]

@JDB, the usual approach for FOS is to try to put the borrower in the position they would have been if the firm had behaved properly.

If upheld, the loss of a voucher could be remediated in one of two ways. FOS could give

– A ‘direction’ for Creation to provide a voucher; or
– A ‘Money Award’.

In the latter case, FOS says, “where a customer has lost out financially, we usually tell the business to compensate them for the loss it caused.”

If FOS determines that a voucher was unreasonably withheld, I think that the most likely outcome would be that Creation would be direscted to provide the missing voucher. In some cases, complainants may be able to make a case that they have ‘lost out financially’ by having to pay for a room with cash. But, generally, I sense that the Ombudsman would be reluctant to give a money award in these cases, unless there was a very good reason for the complainant to have not simply waited for the complaint to be resolved.

In my complaint, I saked for a voucher, but gave a reasonable estimate of a cash alternative that would satisfy me if Creation preferred to do so.

[JDB]

jj wrote:

@JDB, the usual approach for FOS is to try to put the borrower in the position they would have been if the firm had behaved properly.

If upheld, the loss of a voucher could be remediated in one of two ways. FOS could give

– A ‘direction’ for Creation to provide a voucher; or
– A ‘Money Award’.

In the latter case, FOS says, “where a customer has lost out financially, we usually tell the business to compensate them for the loss it caused.”

If FOS determines that a voucher was unreasonably withheld, I think that the most likely outcome would be that Creation would be direscted to provide the missing voucher. In some cases, complainants may be able to make a case that they have ‘lost out financially’ by having to pay for a room with cash. But, generally, I sense that the Ombudsman would be reluctant to give a money award in these cases, unless there was a very good reason for the complainant to have not simply waited for the complaint to be resolved.

In my complaint, I saked for a voucher, but gave a reasonable estimate of a cash alternative that would satisfy me if Creation preferred to do so.

I am very aware of what the FOS can and can’t do and how it operates. However, you assume Creation can provide a voucher and/or points. If they cannot, the value will become an issue. A court most likely cannot order a voucher to be provided. My comments re the theoretical value refer to ‘loss of chance’ cases which this is. Since you don’t believe what I say, you can Google that if interested.

[jj]

@JDB, I didn’t disbelieve anything you said. Quite the contrary: you’re one of the best informed contributors here, and you rarely get your facts wrong.

My comment was that FOS behaves in a very different way from the courts and quite often disregards the law in what it regards as a spirit of fairness. As a board member of an FCA regulated institution, I see that first hand when awkward FOS cases are escalated through our committee structures.

From our point of view, what tends to happen in tricker cases is that we receive a call from FOS saying, “I will be upholding Mr Smith’s complaint, and I need you to put him on the position he would have been if you had behaved properly. How would you propose doing that?” We then have some to-ing and fro-ing with the case handler until we agree on a practicable solution. That solution then appears in Mr Smith’s decision letter.

If one of these cases is upheld and Creation still has access to IHG free night certificates, I would expect FOS to instruct one to be issued – regardless of what a court would say.

[EwanG]

JDB wrote:

I am very aware of what the FOS can and can’t do and how it operates. However, you assume Creation can provide a voucher and/or points. If they cannot, the value will become an issue. A court most likely cannot order a voucher to be provided.

jj wrote:

If one of these cases is upheld and Creation still has access to IHG free night certificates, I would expect FOS to instruct one to be issued – regardless of what a court would say.

Interesting what you both say here.
In my complaint, I clearly stated that a preference to have my free nights and the points (but I did put a monetary estimate against them). As Creation still continue to offer both of these as benefits to the legacy cardholders, there should be no argument that these cannot be provided to me [let’s assume my FOS complaint is upheld]. This would be the fairest way of ensuring there is no debate whether the cash value in lieu of these benefits is too high/low.
Points and free night vouchers are not a scarce item – they can be created and awarded, and Creation have it within their gift to do this – it might be complicated and manual, but they certainly can do it.

[Lady London]

Yes, if Creation had closed the IHG cards completely or if they no longer had an agreement with IHG to be able to issue free night vouchers and points, then ‘remedy’ ordered by FOS or court finding in your favour, could get a bit stickier. Not impossible, just you have to be sure to argue it well. ie ideally, crystallising the loss to avoid the ‘loss of *chance* of benefitting’ being the essence of your claim. As compared to claiming your actual ‘loss of benefit’ which is a more concrete claim. Though I am losing the will to live observing all the repeated delays the FOS seems to be claiming in resourcing their handling of claims against Creation. Coupled with what appears to be the infinite indulgence of the FOS to nonresponse by Creation, to FOS communications to them.

So I think Colin Mackinnon producing screenshots of the IHG website showing the availability for points, of a night in Bora Bora on the exact same day he booked that same night for £1300 cash, is going to impress me. Particularly if Colin can also produce his flight bookings for Bora Bora, the more unrefundable the better. Even better of course if he has already done the stay, and paid cash for other nights at similar rates, or can prove he has stayed there before or at other similarly costly places. That IMV, although IANAL,makes it a lot harder to call it a loss of chance claim as Colin is now out of pocket due to the failure of Creation to provide the voucher / points earned under the agreement.

It’s only outlandish, JDB, if you can’t make a case that shows it’s reasonable. And as the contract is individual, I’d expect ‘reasonable given the cardholder’s circumstances’ to be acceptable.

If with Colin having proven his loss, the FOS still wants to protect card providers who’ve behaved badly and made poor decisions, from themselves, then the FOS would show up as being there more to protect the industry than the consumer.

[zio]

@Olly thank you for posting the complete text of the email.

I haven’t received this email… am I an outlier in this respect?

[Colin MacKinnon]

JDB wrote:

@jj Settlements were I understand probably c.£250-£300 for the voucher.

That would hardly pay for a night in my local Holiday Inn, which was charging £390 for a Saturday night a few months ago. But then the Edinburgh Kimpton that same night was £70 cheaper!

So you might get a simple 5* hotel for that price. Somewhere!!

[Don]

I got a reply from the FO. Is this what everyone else is getting? >>

I’m sorry it’s been a while since you’ve heard from us. Your complaint is currently waiting to be allocated to an investigator. I know you’ve been waiting some time and I want to thank you for your patience.

We’ve been in contact with Creation to get the information we need to investigate your complaint. Generally speaking, businesses can choose who they want to provide financial services to. Providing they close an account in line with the terms and conditions, we wouldn’t necessarily say they acted unfairly.

But we understand sometimes an account closure can have other impacts, such as no longer having the benefits you had as part of your account. So, we want to be satisfied the actions Creation took were reasonable, they treated you fairly, and that they followed their statutory, regulatory and legal obligations correctly.

[Don]

Sorry, yes, I see from the chain that this is as the same as everyone else….

[NorthernLass]

For the first time since the cards were closed, I got an email this week from Creation telling me my statement is ready to view. It’s still £99 in credit from when they refunded the fee so I’m wondering if they’re stirring after being poked by the FOS?

[DanGK]

Don wrote:

I got a reply from the FO. Is this what everyone else is getting? >>

I’m sorry it’s been a while since you’ve heard from us. Your complaint is currently waiting to be allocated to an investigator. I know you’ve been waiting some time and I want to thank you for your patience.

We’ve been in contact with Creation to get the information we need to investigate your complaint. Generally speaking, businesses can choose who they want to provide financial services to. Providing they close an account in line with the terms and conditions, we wouldn’t necessarily say they acted unfairly.

But we understand sometimes an account closure can have other impacts, such as no longer having the benefits you had as part of your account. So, we want to be satisfied the actions Creation took were reasonable, they treated you fairly, and that they followed their statutory, regulatory and legal obligations correctly.

I also got this after escalating (essentially raising a complaint about FOS):

“If you’re still unhappy with the service we’ve given you, you can contact the Independent Assessor, Dame Gillian Guy. The Independent Assessor will usually only review the service we’ve provided once a case has been closed. You have one month from then to refer your complaint to her.

A case closes once an ombudsman’s decision has been issued, the parties accept the findings of the case handler or the complainant decides not to take the case against the financial business any further. You’ll need to contact her directly, as we can’t refer a complaint for you.

You can find the Independent Assessor’s terms of reference here. She can investigate the level of service we’ve provided. But she can’t comment on – or change – the outcome of the complaint about Creation Financial Services Limited.

You can email Dame Gillian at independent.assessor@financial-ombudsman.org.uk or write to The Independent Assessor, PO Box 35738, London, E14 9YU.”

[PeteM]

The Independent Assessor will tell you:

I am afraid we cannot put your complaint about the Financial Ombudsman Service (the Service) forward for the Independent Assessor to review until the Service’s investigation of your case against the financial business is finished. This is so that all customer service-related issues can be addressed right up to the end of a case and so as not to impact the ongoing investigation. You were told of this by the Service in its referral to our office.

I appreciate your complaint ultimately relates to a delay, and that this response is likely to come as a disappointment to you, but the Independent Assessor cannot instruct the Service to expedite your case or speed up its review.

If once the case is closed you remain unhappy with the Service you received, the Independent Assessor will be able to consider whether there were any periods of avoidable delay and make any appropriate recommendations to the Service.

[Scott]

NorthernLass wrote:

For the first time since the cards were closed, I got an email this week from Creation telling me my statement is ready to view. It’s still £99 in credit from when they refunded the fee so I’m wondering if they’re stirring after being poked by the FOS?

I’m not affected by the card closures, and also got my first statement email in a long time, even though I haven’t used the card in over 6 mths.

[wideboys182]

Has anyone here actually had their case dealt with? I appreciate the ombudsman received a high level influx for Creation but i haven’t read anyway someone case settle or closed.

I am claiming for the points or monetary value which is closers to the £3-400 mark not a measly £100 voucher.

End of the day my account is closed and Creation decided that and I can not dispute that. I am disputing that though they chose to close my account they didn’t state since the notice my benefits on the card are revoked. That my issue here and probs it with you all.

If I had known I would have switched cards. Instead I pumped through the card as much as I could for the points.

I am still waiting to see if a new card company takes in the brand.

[Lady London]

Scott wrote:

NorthernLass wrote:

For the first time since the cards were closed, I got an email this week from Creation telling me my statement is ready to view. It’s still £99 in credit from when they refunded the fee so I’m wondering if they’re stirring after being poked by the FOS?

I’m not affected by the card closures, and also got my first statement email in a long time, even though I haven’t used the card in over 6 mths.

Something’s stirred them then. I wonder if it’s some kind of ‘cleaning house’ ahead of calendar year end and possible final withdrawal of the IHG card.

Did you see those Independent Assessor responses to other posters who complained about the FOS’s delays and endless list of excuses for not getting to grips with the complaints about Creation? “We can’t accept your complaint about a delay still continuing because we can only deal with a complaint about a delay continuing, when the delay has stopped” 🙂

It’s Kafka’s castle. Why are these rubbish quangos supported by taxpayers and the customers of the finance industry through levies on providers when there are no consequences for their non-performance?

[Jonathans]

Logged my complaint with the FOS last week, and received notice today it will take 4 months to be assigned a case handler.
It’s very disappointing that 12 months on from the start of the whole debacle we are still yet to have any firms resolutions (positive or negative).

[NorthernLass]

Good luck – I got that response back in March and still haven’t got a case handler, it’s very poor (and dishonest) that they’re still promising that.

[Lady London]

Shall we start a competition to translate what the three initials F.O.S. really mean to complainants?

I’m OK for the first two letters – it’s what the S could stand for that I’m really struggling with.

[SteveJ]

Lady London wrote:

Shall we start a competition to translate what the three initials F.O.S. really mean to complainants?

I’m OK for the first two letters – it’s what the S could stand for that I’m really struggling with.

I find FOS to be Full of S**t

I claim my £5

[JDB]

Jonathans wrote:

Logged my complaint with the FOS last week, and received notice today it will take 4 months to be assigned a case handler.
It’s very disappointing that 12 months on from the start of the whole debacle we are still yet to have any firms resolutions (positive or negative).

There have been some preliminary decisions reported here, but because one party hasn’t accepted that decision, a final Ombudsman decision is awaited. The FOS prioritises cases and these will be seen as ones that are neither large nor require quick decisions. The FOS is short staffed as are many financial organisations, so response time from both are slow. Owing to final decisions by an Ombudsman being unappealable (only the process can be challenged) the FOS will naturally give considerable latitude in awaiting responses from firms. What is more surprising is that, given the number of people who said they were going to MCOL, no judgments have be reported. A couple had complications so hearings delayed, but most ought to have finalised by now.

[Jonathans]

I had a quick look at the FOS website last night and was surprised to see the majority of recent complaints against Creation have been upheld (none related to the card closures admittedly) but mainly around ‘poor service’ and ‘should/could have done more’ type complaints.

I think far fewer people took their complaint to the small claims court then said they would but there is still time.

[JDB]

NorthernLass wrote:

Good luck – I got that response back in March and still haven’t got a case handler, it’s very poor (and dishonest) that they’re still promising that.

Given what has actually been going on here, the allegation of dishonesty by the FOS is really quite funny.

[NorthernLass]

And what exactly has been dishonest about what has been going on, @JDB?

[marks7389]

NorthernLass wrote:

Good luck – I got that response back in March and still haven’t got a case handler, it’s very poor (and dishonest) that they’re still promising that.

Same here, my original 4 months to assignment email having been received at the end of January. Typically not one to spend a fortune on hotels but at least the one voucher they did eventually manage to award me (9 months late) for the previous membership year saved us £500+ on a San Francisco booking in September when rates were generally through the roof. I’ve still no idea why they were so high on that particular Monday night…

On that basis I do at least feel I got good value from my two years as a card member even if that was on IHG/the hotel rather than Creation delivering what was promised. My complaint still stands though and I remain hopeful that Creation will be told to make good on what they promised. In the meantime I’m not investing energy in chasing, just checking in on here every now and again to see if anyone has got anywhere.