EXCLUSIVE: the new British Airways cabin crew pay offer revealed – substantial cuts for legacy crew

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British Airways has just given cabin crew details of the new contract and pay package for staff at London Heathrow which they must accept if they wish to remain with the airline.

It is VERY grim reading for legacy Eurofleet and Worldwide crew members, many of whom will have to accept a substantial pay cut of up to 50% if they wish to remain.

the new British Airways cabin crew pay offer revealed

What is the new British Airways cabin crew package?

BA is promising an OTE package of £24,000 for standard crew.   This comprises basic pay, flight pay and other allowances.

There is the potential for extra income on top, such as commission from in-flight sales.  There is a contributory pension scheme and optional health and insurance benefits.

It is worth noting that the unions have often claimed that British Airways ‘OTE’ figures are more than the majority of crew receive.  For example, the £24,000 figure includes the allowance that crews receive to pay for food in hotels whilst travelling.

Initial feedback is that even existing Mixed Fleet crew will be taking a cut in overall pay and benefits on this new contract although the exact figures are not available.

The contract allow for 30 days of annual leave, but this includes public holidays.  The equivalent for an office worker would be 22 days holiday, given that there are eight public holidays each year.

For clarity, there will be no ‘zero hours’ contracts offered.

New British Airways cabin crew contract

What grades are available?

The new structure has only two grades.  A substantial number of existing senior crew members will be required to downgrade to the level of ‘basic’ crew if they wish to remain.

  • Manager – leading a team of up to 21 cabin crew members
  • Cabin crew – standard crew roles

Some short-haul flights will have no managers on board.

Managerial crew must be willing to take on standard cabin crew roles on certain flights if required.

Crew must agree to work in departure and turnaround roles inside Heathrow if required.

What aircraft will be flown?

All cabin crew will fly a mix of long-haul and short-haul services.  

This will force many existing legacy crew members to resign.  Eurofleet (Heathrow short-haul crew) are unlikely to want to move to spending large amounts of time away from home.  Worldwide (Heathrow long-haul crew) are often based outside London – some even live abroad – and commute to London for each of their 3-4 monthly flights.  This lifestyle is not possible if a short-haul requirement is added.

One upside of combining the fleets is that those who remain will be able to bid for flights across the entire network.  At the moment Heathrow crew are restricted to the routes allocated to their particular fleet, ie Mixed Fleet, Eurofleet or Worldwide.

All crew will be licenced on the A320 and Boeing 777/787 family, with an additional third type on top – either A380, A350 or Boeing 747.

Conclusion

In general, this is what we expected to see – and, for legacy Heathrow crew, it isn’t pretty.  I would expect the majority of Eurofleet and Worldwide crew, who by definition have at least 10 years of British Airways service, to refuse to accept the new contracts.  Most will find it financially or logistically impossible to continue.

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Comments

  1. While I agree with Martin, the reality is airlines are fighting for their lives. Traffic is forecast to be down 42% this year and only return to 2019 levels in 2023. And if business travel is impacted by people shifting to conference calls (I doubt I will be attending the 2-3 conferences a year I used to) then airline profitability will be destroyed. It may be a case of accept lower pay or lose your job entirely. [email protected]

  2. Mikeact says:

    What a contentious subject…arguments on both sides of the coin, and from what I can read, good and bad points on either side…so, there will be no winners in all of this at the end of the day.
    It’s a shame that probably a lot of these arguments could have been settled years ago, but when you have militant unions lined up, then today’s climate is probably the end result of all the bickering of the past years.
    It seems to me that for BA to get back on track, they have no choice, and I guess that they have an opportunity to try and level the playing field going forward.
    Whether or not they are going about it the right way seems to be the big one, but ultimately what choice do they have ?

    • Rebecca says:

      Hi Mike,
      I hear what you’re saying but BA have made huge profits and have 10 billion pounds in liquidity. Nobody knows when bookings will pick up, but if the cruise business is anything to go by there have been mass forward bookings and pent up demand that has been very surprising.
      However long it takes, it’s temporary.
      So it’s temporary measures that are needed to fix the temporary problem.
      BA do have that choice. Many contracts have lay off clauses in them, so the answer is there. No battle needed. Temporary lay offs, then return to work when needed. We all accept that.
      But to just dismiss everyone and offer a much reduced alternative is uneccessary and immoral.
      It is indeed and opportunistic smash and grab.
      We will all be worse off for it, not just crew. Also passengers and indeed flight crew (pilots) who feel safer and more comfortable flying with experienced and level-headed crew. We hear this every day from passengers.

      • So you’re perfectly happy by under cutting MF colleagues here again? All who have the same training but just aren’t “older” and “legacy”? Dubious to say the least. The reason they exist is because of the legacy unions settling for this new fleet as a suitable outcome when BA last tried to simplify/change T & Cs in 2010…I’m sorry but you can’t have a moral argument yourself if the undertone consists of partially throwing a section of your colleagues under the bus by saying customers and your own flight crew feel less comfortable with them. So much for “Unite”

      • Sure Rebecca, but you can’t quote £10bn without also saying how much cash they are burning through each week and seriously, how long to get that back above zero? Years probably. Sure, they’re seizing what they see as an opportunity to do something they’ve wanted to do for years, but they categorically need to change and fast…and drastically. They ain’t alone either.

    • Aston100 says:

      It’s about time unions were disbanded.
      They serve no real purpose anymore.
      Most employees are protected by employment laws.
      Unions nowadays seem to exist solely to cause as much disruption and headache for employers as possible.

      • Craig says:

        I agree one zillion percent!! Unions are a nasty throwback to the industrial dark ages and are absolutely nothing more than an archaic self serving rabble, constantly seeking to stifle business efficiencies and progression.

        • I wonder how you’ll feel when one day you’re screwed over by an employer and left with nothing. Without unions we’d have even less rights in the workplace.

          • Paul74 says:

            Agreed.

          • Agree 100%

            Every labour law from the factory acts limiting child labour, adequate health and safety legislation, working hours, time off, sex and race equality has had to be fought off in the face of opposition from business and Tory MPs.

            We are a million miles away from the union abuses of the 1970’s. A million miles away.
            I’d just like people doing a roughly 38-40 hour week to be able to live live fairly normally and not have to claim grindingly depressing means tested benefits.

          • Ken:

            Some people want the flexibility to work 40+ hours a week. You can’t dictate what people can and can’t do …unless you’re French

          • Agree Ken. What a pathetic comment @Josh, pointless attack on our French neighbours and friends shows what kind of person you are.

          • And @Josh some desperate soul might be willing to work 70 hours a week, doesn’t mean it’s a good idea… Think about it.

      • Derek Watts says:

        I have to say I don’t agree… With a mature management, unions can be a resource to draw upon and work through problems together. Sadly the airline management never engage with them and it’s a mutually abusive relationship. Unions also protect employees from the bullying, cronyism, nepotism and abuses of power that are rife in airlines. Maybe it’s the military throwback, not sure, but the scale of abuse from ambitious men with massive egos and an intellect deficit in airline management is quite shocking. The abuses I’ve seen and heard, with them trying to have any individual removed out the door that dares to question them or their decisions. In a safety critical industry, this causes crashes and accidents. Unions are one of the few barriers to this kind of abuse…

    • Carlos says:

      They have gone about industrial relations like this for years hence all the ‘bickering’. Sensible negotiations have been absent for some time

  3. I am surprised to hear some of your negative comments towards BA cabin crew and staff. You are clearly forming an opinion without the facts or knowledge. If BA staff were too costly, how did BA make £1.9 billion profit. 4 times the combined profit than the other airlines in IAG group. This disgraceful and deliberate move by Willie Walsh and IAG is a cynical and timely to take advantage of corvid 19 and use us tax payers money (£130m plus) to do this. BA are going to introduce an up to 50% salary reduction for 30,000 staff. This will not only have a huge impact on the staff and their families, but will have much wider and enormous impact on the uk economy, including jobs and delays in recovery. Nobody will be untouched by this. it also opens the floodgates for other firms to do the same. This will be devastating for the UK.

    • Steve O'Harat says:

      +1

    • Oddbjorn says:

      This is an interesting one – the £1.8bn does not necessarily equate to £1.8bn cash in the bank. I would anticipate a significant chunk of that is absorbed by “exceptional items” – which may include costs attributed to last years strikes, the IT data breach etc etc.

      Similarly, liquidity of €10bn does not mean IAG have this sat in the bank… the majority of this is debt finance. I think people are failing to see that debt finance is exactly that, and will need to be repaid further down the line. We’ve seen the demise of Thomas Cook due to being debt laden… with no guarantee that there won’t be a second wave, or how long it will really take the industry to recover is now really the time to be making such a risky call? I think not…

  4. Are directors taking pay cuts too?

    • Good question – and I think we know the answer.

    • Yes they are. The whole company is going through a huge restructure and pay regrading. Of course that wouldn’t be good headlines for mainstream media and unions who can later then say “£24K” is “poverty pay”.

      • It is poverty pay for London. Everyone at HFP earns at least 50% more than that (just in case you think I don’t put my own money where my mouth is). They also don’t have to pay for their own food when travelling!

        • Totally agree Rob. It’s the state of the country as a whole, there are tonnes of people who earn quite a bit less than £24K but still scramble and live in shoddy houses of multiple occupation – like all waiters, teaching assistants, cleaners, retail workers, some grades of NHS workers like Healthcare Assistants and even very junior nurses. It’s the state of the whole country tbh sadly. So when you compare it to other categories of pay, it isn’t “poverty”, but when you compare it to the national “frontline” average, it’s not the worst. Now I don’t want to start the debate of “which job is worth more and which job is more challenging” as that is very arbitrary and ambiguous. 🙂

          • *tons

          • Bazza says:

            It must be close to half the London NHS on £24k (anyone below Band 4 which is most admin of which there are 850 @ UCLH alone) + the support staff like interserve & hospital transport.

          • For clarity it is NOT £24k because this includes ‘living’ allowances. Imagine if you earned £24k but you were in hotels 100 days per year and your employer refused to pay for your meals when you were there. It is the equivalent of that.

  5. Dean Skelton says:

    It’s high time world wide is taken away. I’m ex mixed fleet and we were worked so hard because of how overpaid and under worked worldwide were. Our careers were changed because of worldwide’s greed, mixed fleet started out with no terms and conditions and appalling pay of £10500 a year with £2 per hour flying allowance. This was due to WW wanting a pay rise at a time of no money, they were offered extra J tickets and a smaller payrise but they kept refusing. They offered to dissolve mixed fleet into WW and they still said no and there started the terrible treatment of cabin crew at BA.

    Whilst WW would receive £800 in allowances for a Tokyo mixed fleet would receive £230. MF would get 2 days off after Tokyo WW would get 4. MF Cape Town trips were 1 night and WW would get 3, this is a non jet lag destination. WW would get paid huge amounts to go into discretion, WW once told ne they received £1200 for a trip because they went into discretion and worked longer hours. WW used to have a disturbed rest payment of £250 if the poppers were broken on the curtain when they went for a sleep. They drove the airline to near bankruptcy, it’s full of people who hate their job but want the money.

    They want to leave but can’t earn what they earn anywhere else. I met people who were on 48k as their basic salary so add all their flight pay on top mixed with a very low tax rate as they’re out of the U.K. a lot (they pay 20% on 20% income tax) and you have people walking away with extraordinary salaries and HUGE salaries for cabin crew. WW could afford two houses and to live abroad working so little. A 33% contract WW worker would work a trip, maybe two in a two week period and then have a month off and they’d still get £1800 a month which was the same as MF working 7 trips a month. The CSD cabin service director is on 80k a year and with flight pay can earn as much as the co pilot, this used to be a position with no set role on the aircraft, the CSD would sit and watch movies in the office and float about making sure everything was running smoothly. They changed this position so they had to work and they removed 15 crew members on a 747 and made it 14 and WW were up in arms.

    They’re a lazy, massively over paid set of people that need to be addressed by removing their ridiculous perks and pay. If WW have a cold they don’t go down as sick where as MF we’re reported sick for everything. WW took BA too far and would accept any changes which made MF life hard and sad. They ruined the careers of new crew for a decade so it’s time they knew what they inflicted upon us. I had a friend who moved from MF to head office and she saw how the WW wage bill was choking the company. Now WW is gone there will be a lot more power to get a better deal for ALL crew once this pandemic is over.

    I used BA for a trip to Boston over the new year, MF out and WW back. The MF crew were nicer, worked harder and faster and did a better job than WW who forgot my food, took forever with the service and told me if I thought that was bad I should see MF. Now those people don’t have their bumper pay and massive amounts of time off. With regards to the selling of products, WW set the stage being SO lazy not needing to sell duty free due to their huge pay that the company culture moved away from selling. I left BA for Thomas cook and our wages would rise 25% or more on a flight due to the sales we would make. I don’t fly at all anymore because there’s more to life than being crew and I do feel sorry for WW but they’ve had a dream life compared to everyone else for most of their working life and the gravy train had to end somewhere and this is it. Willie Walsh has wanted rid of them for a long time so this is the excuse. WW join MF and fight for better working conditions, you might get somewhere as one unit.

    • You sound jealous and bitter. Why do Euro and Worldwide Fleet always outperform (by a long way) Mixed Fleet?

      • Have you seen the hard data? I have. It flits back and forth. How do I know? My partner works for the company, though in a non-flying head office role and has access to the NPS data such as this. Even when you take it as a average, there is only a very fine line of difference and certainly not enough to say one is “superior” to the other.

        • James says:

          Totally agree. Their inflated pay is not worth 1 or 2% better customer scores on long haul. And as for EF… constantly 5-6% lower than MF on average

        • I think you’re a liar.

      • He doesn’t sound happy. But it is a different and detailed perspective on the issue and coming from someone who was a BA MF cabin crew member shows that the WW and EF crew might not have MF support in their fight with BA on their own T&Cs. You can see why BA would take the opportunity to renegotiate the WW and EF contracts. It would be interesting to hear what someone from WW or EF thinks of Dean’s post.

    • You couldn’t have hit the head more. As a passenger I have definitely seen some of this bad attitude translate to poor customer service. In fact my lively best flights have almost always been on MF than legacy fleets. Though I have had some excellent service on a handful of legacy fleet flights too. However yes the whole immorality question is dubious and something that is seldom being mentioned by any sector or media or person and are overall in favour of BA bashing. Had the legacy fleet unions not been so malicious 10 years ago, the whole idea of mixed fleet wouldn’t have even come to light.

      • While your anecdotes are interesting worldwide/euro fleet consistently far exceed mixed fleet in customer satisfaction scores. Not really any surprise because the staff turnover in MF is so high.

        • Well the data doesn’t seem to “far exceed anything”. If at all, it varies nominally, seasonally and sometimes even monthly. Far exceed in view is if it exceeds something consistently at least as a bare minimum 10% or more more each time, it definitely isn’t that.

    • xmenlongshot says:

      Thanks for taking the time to write this insightful comment.

      Sounds like there was a lot of entitlement

      • Oh right. Probably best you look up the definition of entitlement prior to trolling and then scratch your head as to how my comment appeared entitled in any way? 🙂 Of course if it’s someone else’s comment, then my apologies.
        Good luck to you.

        • If of course you’re in agreement with original comment and are labelling legacy fleets as entitled and not me, then my apologies once again. 🙂 Difficult to know as your comment is just below mine.

        • To be fair I think xmenlongshot’s comment was in reply to Dean and not you. It’s easier to see this on the desktop website.

          • xmenlongshot says:

            Yes was referring to the original poster Dean

          • Yes, I did figure that after re-reading. Sorry got my defences up too soon. It appears as a direct reply to mine on mobile 🙂 No offence intended and rest assured none of this is personal. Thanks and apologies.

    • Wendy says:

      Wow bitter much? And generalising? Would love it if my partner could afford a second home on a WW salary. To say WW don’t work hard and are lazy is insulting. I’ve heard his complaints of others not pulling their weight but most WW crew work hard. This shouldn’t be about who works hardest however. This is about brutal behaviour from BA, forcing through a consultation without actually consulting staff as union reps are furloughed. We face financial ruin due to this with our financial obligations. People need to have some empathy for the staff this is impacting.

      • Lady London says:

        If a union reps are furloughed and not in the consultation and if the union is recognised then i would challenge the consultation as not having taken place and therefore invalid so matters could not proceed further. Surely union lawyers will spot this.

        • I believe this is the punt the unions are trying to latch onto and hence not engaging whilst awaiting legal challenge. Trouble is let’s say they win, what’ll happen? BA will un-furlough everyone and restart the 45 day statutory clock again whilst pushing through same proposals whereby the excuse of “not being able to consult whilst furloughed” will be held invalid. On the other side of the coin, if BA do win the legal challenge, then they’ve lost crucial consultation time and BA could then just be extra-brutal and slash left, right, centre if it so desired and not be obliged to extend any further time for consultations. Really risky play here by the unions IMO. In terms solely of corporate greed, business tactics etc, BA have played a masterstroke. I don’t endorse or agree with it, but you can’t blame a profit grabbing and shareholder interested company for choosing this opportunity.

        • Lady London says:

          its about buying time Nik.

          After a really nasty experience myself I’ve made a point of advising a number of people in this kind of trouble with employers over the years. They all got better outcomes than they would have otherwise. I’ve also been either having to sack an individual myself and also been privy to large redundancy programs seeing from the inside the intentions and how they operate.

          There is so little protection for employees in the UK it’s important to be aware of the few ways an employee can help themselves in this kind of situation. There are usually a few. I’d advise anyone to join a union these days even if no one else in your workplace is in a union and even if your work type is not unionised. The access to the legal support unions provide is the best for this type of thing. You dont need to tell your employer youve joined a union if you’re just doing it on your own.

      • Paul74 says:

        Indeed.

    • Mikeact says:

      Thanks @Dean for the insight. As a customer I always did wonder how it all worked. It will now be interesting to see how others respond….I hope you don’t get too much negative flack.

    • RegBosie says:

      Case of divide and conquer by BA

    • Novice says:

      Thanks Dean for your comment/testimony. Seriously, this is the point I keep making, over weeks now.

      As a person I just know myself enough that I could never do a job where I knew someone was getting such bad conditions and pay for the exact same job based on age/experience, without having massive arguments with the bosses because if you truly live by a moral code then everyone is equal in one’s eyes.

      This sounds exactly how I imagined it. And it is truly dreadful that now when it’s about to hurt their cause, they are crawling out of the woodwork.

      I must admit I always find younger crew members much more enthusiastic in their job. But I have not flown BA more than two dozen times possibly as I’m young myself so also have a different perspective on everything.

    • Sandy says:

      Totally 100% accurate!

    • Andy S says:

      Dry your eyes Dean

      Did someone force you to work for BA or to sign your contract of employment. No it was your choice. Your bitterness and jealousy at WW is obvious for all to see

      Not sure how often some of the people commenting on here used to fly with BA or in which cabin but in general you could tell in a pretty short time which crew was serving you.

      WW much classier seamless service from people who have been doing the job for years and passing down a certain level of service, to MF fumbling through, often with a smile but little else in the way of style or class. Drinks spilled, meals forgotten lack of continuity in the service etc etc

      Number crunchers can make data say what they want, we all know that. The gap between WW and MF is clear to see in reality to people who travel frequently.

      In the future 1 manager for a plane the size of the A380 and junior crew in all classes will lead to low cost long haul. If less business’s pay out for their staff to travel after this, business class will be more and more taken up by the wealthier leisure traveller with time on their hands. Leaving from Europe or going via another point to get a far superior class of service won’t be an issue.

      • I have seen very shoddy service on legacy crew flights also. Is class purely defined by length of service and experience or worse still the pay and the backgrounds people come from? It certainly seems that you are insinuating that.

        • Euro/Worldwide fleets consistently outperform Mixed Fleet in customer satisfaction scores. This is well known.

          • insider says:

            where’s your evidence? I’ve had good and bad crews on both. Sometimes the legacy crews are great, but often they come across as they don’t want to be there at all. At least mixed fleet look like they are trying, even if they always perform best

    • W. Walsh says:

      What a nasty bitter comment. Dean Skeleton You obviously don’t work for BA any more they probably seen the kind of immature attitude you have and dismissed you.

    • Carlos says:

      If you think reducing WW salaries would improve those of MF you are very innocent. Why are MF getting reduced salaries when theirs are so low already?

  6. Paul Adams says:

    Just one item missed from B A cabin crew, and other staff of course. Staff travel concession.
    10% unlimited trips, including on other Iata airlines. Length service can provide 2 free confirmed flights often in biz or first if available.
    10% flights are standby availability.
    Compare this to the likes Rianair or Easyjet, let alone basic pay levels.

    • Tbh that in itself is such an amazing perk (of course with its pitfalls but if you plan wisely, it’s fantastic). Cue BA staffers now complaining that compared to other legacy airlines the scheme isn’t as good, but you can’t have everything can you? But yes compared to UK airlines, it is certainly still rather generous.

    • Andy S says:

      just to clarify @pauladams misleading comments

      Staff travel is at a highly reduced rate. With a number of differing levels but It is always on a stand by basis, it is never truly confirmed outbound. You can go from confirmed to not even being on the flight due to operational circumstances so whilst cheap, it isn’t for everyone as you might never get on the flight. Hence it was cheap as BA were never giving you a seat they couldn’t sell commercially if they wanted. Returning from an ex UK destination the airline had more responsibility to not leave you stranded.

      This is all based on seniority and ranking within the airline. It took 15 years service to have the possibilty of business class and more than 90% of staff would never have a first priority.

      As is often the case with forums and social media, people jump in with half the facts making themselves look stupid. I’m guessing by not even mentioning what discount and number of free/cheap flights Ryanair or Easyjet crew get @PaulAdams doesn’t even know and just threw that in for effect

  7. I just read over on FT a post from someone whose wife is BA cabin crew and looking at a £5k pay cut that the salary of £24k is for main crew. BA are apparently offering £32k for SCCMs (I think the acronym stands for Senior Cabin Crew Member). So while the majority of crew will potentially be on the lower £24k salary it sounds like that is not what is on offer for ALL crew. It’s still crap but I also understand that this is a starting proposal from BA and not yet confirmed as the final offer. I hope the unions are actually engaging with BA to try and improve on this.

    • Exactly! That’s what a lot of people aren’t mentioning also. This is a STARTING negotiating tactic in BA’s kitty. They probably have a realistic target they’re willing to accept in conjunction with unions but naturally have to start off on the lower end to then commence negotiations. Ultimately after consultation BA will reach their “true” figure they were willing to accept and had in their mind all the way along but then of course unions will be all over the place about how they’ve managed a great consultation and great victory for better T & Cs. Which is of course a win in the end. But unions aren’t engaging now and are trying to mount a legal battle. Should they lose, well then they’re the ones to blame as BA will most definitely opportunistically stick to the lowest possible T & Cs and then be licking their lips! So yet again, unions need to engage if they’re to salvage anything out of this. I can’t see courts and law of the land intervening and blocking this. It’s not like we have stringent pro-employee laws in this country anyway!

      • Yes blame the victim.

        To be honest it pains me to say but this thread depressingly shows people get the politicians and policies they deserve. Rich bullying management given the benefit of the doubt – while front line staff suffer. It wouldn’t be allowed in France or Germany. No wonder Britain is so unequal and so divided.

      • But why move? Perhaps BA moves a little so that Mixed Fleet is not worse off. That is 40% of cabin crew signed up as why wouldn’t Mixed Fleet sign on that basis? They only need 66% of the current total based on the current fleet plan, so roughly 40% of the remainder. Some Eurofleet / Worldwide will agree regardless of the pay cut because they know, short term, they won’t get another job. That’s probably enough to keep BA going.

        • Yes, what I mean to say is BA definitely have something in mind to appease Mixed Fleet if and when unions engage. This will likely be enough as you say Rob to keep Mixed Fleet onboard which in itself is a huge victory for BA. Sadly, this is the end of the line likely for legacy crew or at least with the comforts they have been rewarded with over the last few decades. Deep down BA also know that if and when they need more cabin crew, almost all recruitment campaigns of Mixed Fleet have had 40K applications with only around 2K getting threw, this will undoubtedly continue. Despite what people might say or think now, inevitably it will on the face of it remain an “attractive” job for many people. I won’t say young as there are lots of “older” mixed fleet crew who join later in life after leaving their “main career” in pursuit of “something new” and to see the World.

        • Paul74 says:

          Sadly, yes.

      • ‘Nik’….you make so many negative comments and pro BA/anti legacy crew…..anybody would think your willie Walsh in disguise…😉

    • Management is £32k OTE, correct. There are very few managerial roles on offer though – remember that some short-haul flights will now operate without a manager at all, and on a long-haul flight you can have up to 22 crew of which just 1 is a manager.

  8. Chris says:

    This is an interesting predicament – it sounds like one group of cabin crew are massively overpaid while another group are massively underpaid.

    This combining of the groups attempts to rationalise both pay problems and on the surface, it makes sense to have all crew on the same pay scales.

    It sounds like the ‘middle ground’ initially proposed by BA is far closer to the underpaid salary amount than the overpaid salary though the negotiations can hopefully bring this up a bit.

    If it were exactly halfways between the standard pay for the two groups then I would argue that it’s fair for both groups in this unusual situation.

    • mark2 says:

      To me it seems strange that the unions are fighting to protect this inequality.

    • I think you’re massively overpaid. BA in normal times are a profitable company, nothing unsustainable about euro/worldwide fleets.

      • Novice says:

        But @J, how is this fair or moral?

        • Novice, I’m glad somebody is consistently bringing up this view. I agree, Mixed Fleet itself is a total bi-product of legacy unions willing to accept BA doing this (and thereafter keeping them totally at arm’s length) so long as it protected themselves. I too question the “morality” of that whereby somebody doing the exact same job, and on a much more intense scale is being paid less within your own organisation.

          • Not true. Euro/worldwide fleets were very opposed to the creation of Mixed Fleet. MF were not initially unionised – BA tried to keep it that way but it did eventually unionise. MF though when they have taken industrial action have not been very effective – easy for a 19 year old to be scared out of industrial action through threats about loss of perks and so on. Euro/worldwide fleets unions under law though can’t have anything to do with Mixed Fleet – the action they could take which would work, joined up industrial action of all fleets would be illegal and literally bankrupt the union.

  9. Rupert says:

    I don’t understand why such huge anger at this. £24k is more than nurses and police get paid when they start. Unless I’m missing something giving out drinks and food during a flight for a few hours isn’t exactly difficult, and no specific skills are required. I have friends who are / were crew and with the occasional disgruntled customer the role isn’t exactly stressful. Some of the perks such as seeing the world, upgraded seats, free hotels etc are worth the pay. The truth will be when people stop applying to be cabin crew which I cannot see happening at all.

    • How would you feel if your pay and conditions from your current employer were suddenly drastically slashed? Can you afford a massive pay cut? One day it might happen to you.

    • Toxteth O’Grady says:

      You forget that the crew are trained in Safety and Emergency Procedures that may one day save your life.

  10. Here’s an interesting one. Would you be happy to resign if you were given a BA Gold card and 250,000 Avios as an extra bonus?

    Before you say ‘no airline would do that’ ….. https://liveandletsfly.com/united-separation-packages/

    • Novice says:

      I would like to apologise in advance if I say anything inappropriate @Rob but I’d like to use HFP as example to clarify my frustration at the lack of equality in this world which is reflected here in comments.

      As analogy; as far as I know, Rhys is young and was recruited by Rob despite lack of experience in the industry. I’m sure everyone will agree that Rhys does a great job and is a good writer (more enthusiastic in his reviews than Rob has ever been). So, taking this as example; Anika has more experience than Rhys in the industry (I am guessing here from what I have read on the site). Let’s forget gender inequality for the moment and still should Rob pay Rhys a massively disproportionate pay just coz he lacked experience and was young to what he paid Anika?

      I’m not saying that an older, more experienced person should be paid same but the BA pay gap seems to be massive. It’s injustice. It’s like telling young people they have no value to add so are expendable in economic sense.

      • You seem to fully endorse a race to the bottom. Conveniently though I expect you don’t think it should apply to you.

        • Novice says:

          Honestly I don’t have a clue what you mean.

          But I have made my point a lot of times now. I believe in equality and fairness. I just think legacy crews shouldn’t be talking about morals because they were fine to let the bad treatment commence for younger staff. They can say they don’t like this situation but I would like for ppl to not make it a morality issue because it’s not like anyone can brag about their own morals. I’m young but this is my perspective of the situation.

          • It would have been illegal for legacy crews unions to do anything about mixed fleet contracts. The UK’s anti union laws are very clear on this.

          • Novice says:

            I’m talking about the outrage. Where was the outrage? I have never heard anything in the media or otherwise. Are you saying if all legacy crews demanded fair conditions/ pay for everyone, it would have been bad?

            I’m done. I don’t have the patience for repeating myself or hoping for an equal world 🌍 when we have ppl like yourself. You are welcome to your inequal beliefs.

          • Spare me, you don’t hope for an equal world. You’re advocating a world where everyone is treated badly. Do you even understand how a union works? They can be outraged about all sorts of things but they represent their members, and they are very constrained by law on what and how they can take industrial action.

      • Rhys knows far more about aviation (not loyalty, aviation) than the rest of the team put together, which is why we hired him. He has also run a non-aviation blog in the past (he knows more about WordPress than I do!) and is very ‘presentable’ to senior people as those who have met him will attest – he is not phased by chatting to Alex Cruz, Shai Weiss etc. His age is immaterial as indeed is his background, except to the extent that – as a new graduate – he didn’t have to resign another role to come to us and that was handy.

        • Novice says:

          Exactly. He was hired for his talent and potential value which is great and exactly my point. Talent and skill should be rewarded not age or so-called experience.

          And good on you Rob. But it may be because you are a northerner by birth 😂 so understand this.

          • Experience and the knowledge that it brings has value. Talent and skills should be rewarded too, but to say experience has no value is illogical and suggests no real world experience.

        • Mikeact says:

          Age doesn’t come into it when I meet people. When I first met Rhys, I just wished I’d have been as bright as him when I was younger !

      • You make a very fair point and sadly, some people are selective and cannot reach an overall broader view on it. I don’t by any means believe you are endorsing a “race to the bottom” and think you’re actually exposing matters which are conveniently being hidden in the background in favour of overall BA bashing. Of course that doesn’t mean to say I believe BA are highly ethical/moral – they’re not and in the airline World, probably one of the most brutal.

        • Novice says:

          👍

          Weird thing is I’m younger than most here and I can’t believe the level of BS that I have read. But alas I give up.

          • You have no idea how old anyone else here is. I don’t know and I don’t particularly care. Get over going on about how young you supposedly are, it’s dull.

          • Well I don’t know how young or old I am in comparison, but I don’t think age is necessary to define the quality, validity, balance and fairness when one is articulating their point. By far you have been very dignified and logical in the points you make and sadly the anonymous World and internet will always try their best to troll. Naturally some are personally affected and participating in the discussion here and I don’t blame them, but it would be difficult not to have a tunneled view of it and then continue to bash any other point of view that doesn’t conform to theirs. 🙂

          • (Above comments refers to Novice btw)

  11. I just wanted to comment on a few bits, I am current Eurofleet crew, I’m post ’97 so I’m not ‘old’ contract, intact I was some of the last intakes before the introduction of mixed fleet.
    I currently live around 250 miles from Heathrow, so it’s not just WW crew who live further afield.

    BA never mentioned zero hour contracts, it was initially misquoted, current new contract crew have a 6 months unpaid leave clause in the contract that the company can use in situations like COVID (although I believe no one has been forced onto unpaid leave upto now) They probably want this in the new contract.

    In true BA style, most of us have not yet received the proposal so it’s always good to read about your new contract online with people who don’t even work here.

    A lot of us on EF are here by choice, having done long haul and have no desire to spend nights out of bed. There is also crew on EF who would embrace the mixed flying style flying, but mixed flying can be tough, some short haul days are multi sector or long ‘there & backs’ some of which are longer duty days than shorter long haul trips, these report as early as 0505 so a combination of long days, early morning and then into a long haul that will usually include an overnight sector as part of the trip with time changes, this will be tough with a minimum of 8 days off per month.

    As a more junior member of post ’97 but pre mixed fleet crew my pay isn’t over inflated, and I have to admit I think I’d struggle to live down south on what I earn now, which isn’t massively over £24k, that’s an average of £1600 a month take home, minus any salary sacrifice such as pension which for me is around £100 a month.
    Who can seriously afford to live near Heathrow, on £1500 a month?

    The comments from Nik on here scream jealousy and envy, we all have different experiences from the fleets, I’ve had great WW and MF flights, and equally I’ve had many WW and MF crews were the service was lacking. Often WW become complacent because they’ve done the job so long and often don’t take change, MF on the other hand the lack of experience sometimes shows, and also so does the loyalty to the company. If you’ve shown over 30 years of lolalty to the company why shouldn’t your pay reflect this?

    Changes need to be made to ensure the company survives, we know that…. But not by doing it the BA does, they’d get what they want with fair and meaningful negotiation, not taking the smash and grab tactic they are using.

    • A happy crew results in happy customers. The way they are treating you is absolutely disgusting.

    • How are my comments screaming of jealousy? Care to explain. I hope you haven’t mixed me up with comments from other members here who are or have been Mixed Fleet crew (won’t mention names as one can scroll back and verify for themselves). In fact, far from it, I have tried my level best to be as balanced as possible, finding critique where legacy fleets are to critique but also crediting legacy fleets where it’s due. Likewise, consistently I have bashed BA too that whilst it makes business sense to do what they’re doing, I have consistently maintained that the new proposed pay is by no means good, especially in London but have also conversely highlighted that pay in general for “frontline” workers (who form quite a significant portion of people living in London) are in general underpaid as a whole in the country and in the process highlighting a general social issue plaguing us. So how it “screams” of jealousy I don’t know. I haven’t in the process, like other comments, mentioned my career or compared my pay or my job and consequently complained in the process. So hopefully, I will give the benefit of the doubt that you were meaning somebody else and not me, but if you were meaning it to be me, then frankly I think there needs to be a “reality check” as there are proper regular trolls on here that are far more nonsensical than me. Whilst I follow the site regularly, I only occasionally read comments and even more infrequently submit a comment myself!

      My best wishes to you, and trust me, I really hope you (and everyone else affected) gets the best result possible. I would not gain any happiness at all if the end result ruined your whole livelihood.

      • For someone who is so “balanced” you seem very relaxed about radically changing people’s pay and conditions overnight. I hope something similar never happens to you.

        • I appear “relaxed” because there is frankly no point in creating “outrage” on a website like this and by using flowery, borderline dramatic language, it does nothing for the blood pressure, one, and two it doesn’t actually change or make things any better for people who are directly affected by this (in fact it will only further rile them up more the more negative a post sounds/comes across) nor does it help “change someone’s mind” who might be opposing the view.

          On your point of forced contract changes, yes that has happened in my line of work, there was industrial action, thankfully with a lot of public support too, but sadly it went nowhere. The fact this is possible is another matter altogether that entangles a problem on a broader societal level as well as political front and one that should be raised as a grievance to MPs consistently than on here 🙂

          • For the record J, I have a good handful of people (including in legacy fleets), who work across various functions of BA, that I can call genuine friends thanks to my partner who works in the industry too. It is devastating on a personal level and a point of view I have not shied away from mentioning amongst my other “relaxed” points. BA is brutal, but very sadly a lot of times in our society, it is not against the law.

          • As a Brit living in Germany I prefer their mindset around employment rights. Workers here are better off and its a more equal society vs the UK where everyrhing seems to favour management and the bosses. Of course Germany isn’t utopia although for anyone at risk of redundancy (or worried about a coronavirus epidemic!) it’s a better place to be.

        • Yes agree with you! The fact the employment rights at least at the level they are is definitely credited to EU policies, with those laws clocks ticking come December 31st 2020 and the public highly head over heels over the current government, sadly it only looks to be getting worse after that. I know we might not have got off on the right “footing” so to speak on our previous comments, I just want to say if you indeed are legacy crew and hence going to be affected by this abysmal action by BA, I sincerely hope something better works out for you. 🙂 Genuinely.

          • I am not crew, although like you I have friends in both (legacy and MF) and we agree in wishing them all well 🙂 Indeed the lack of employment rights in the UK is alarming. Any MF crew for example who are made redundant and who’ve been with BA for less than 2 years (which will be quite a few) are entitled to nothing in terms of statutory redundancy pay.

        • Yes I know it’s bad. Sadly I just can’t see the situation improving on the employee protection front in the UK at least in the medium term and I’m generally an optimist. Well I’m glad that broadly we both agree on the core principles of the human side of things here. Fingers crossed that at least the best possible outcome can be achieved, but likewise it is inevitable they will never be as cushty as the legacy contracts, but that’s purely a result of the way the aviation market has been going, blame Michael O’ Leary, Tony Fernandes, Stelios for that collectively, though yet again, balancing things out, people too have been content that this has made aviation far more accessible as a hole, sadly it’s the frontline that have to take the brunt!

      • Joy laughlin says:

        Perhaps you should refrain from commenting on the details of a job that you don’t actually do and obviously have little understanding of ..I have been flying 39 years today and have experience of another profession also but wouldn’t dream of giving my opinion of the terms and conditions of a job I’ve not been involved in

        • Clearly I’m not the only one. It has been out there and there have been 400+ comments out of which I’m sure a huge majority do not work in the industry or have any idea. I at least have deeper insight into the industry thanks to the other half. So if crew didn’t want it publicly torn apart, they shouldn’t have leaked it in the first place, and best still, they shouldn’t have attended Amy James’ session which the union strictly advised against 🙂

          • Of course, now it’s the public domain, anyone is from anywhere can say anything they wish. For one, mine have definitely been the more moderate of comments here.

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